During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Jeff and Rachael discuss leading our way out of the pandemic with values at the fore, centering young people and anti-racist practices specifically. Jeff speaks with author, musician, and economist, Patrick Kabanda about his book The Creative Wealth of Nations and the role of arts and cultural education in sustainable development. Finally, these themes are applied to the ideas of “applied creativity” and how to be an “undercover artist” with values.
In this episode you’ll learn:
About Patrick Kabanda’s journey from growing up in Kampala, Uganda to music school, and then the World Bank;
How arts education can contribute to sustainable development; and
What “applied creativity” can contribute to the artistry in everyone.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
The Creative Wealth of Nations by Patrick Kabanda
Economist and philosopher Amartya Sen
David Gelles observations on the role of the arts in sustainable development
Patrick’s piece: At the UN, the Arts Emerge as a Force for Sustainable Development
The concept of ‘creative natives’
UNDP background paper Examining Inequality in the Arts
Robert and Michele Root-Bernstein’s book Sparks of Genius
Pivot podcast on big tech’s military contracts
ABOUT PATRICK KABANDA
Patrick Kabanda’s first book The Creative Wealth of Nations was published in May 2018 by Cambridge University Press, with foreword by the philosopher and Nobel economist Amartya Sen. A Juilliard-trained organist and a Fletcher-trained international affairs professional, he received Juilliard’s William Schuman Prize for outstanding achievement and leadership in music in 2003, and from 2012 to 2013 he was a Charles Francis Adams Scholar at The Fletcher School. Besides concertizing and lecturing worldwide, he has taught at Phillips Academy, consulted for the World Bank’s Office of the Senior Vice President and Chief Economist, and contributed to the World Development Report 2016 and to UNDP’s 2015 and 2019 Human Development Reports. He was awarded the 2013 Presidential Award for Citizenship and Public Service from Tufts University, Massachusetts.
WHERE TO FIND PATRICK:
Twitter: @Arts4Dev
Instagram: @p_kabanda
Website: www.musikaba.net
This episode of Why Change? A Podcast for the Creative Generation was powered by Creative Generation. It was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Artwork by Bridget Woodbury. Music by Distant Cousins.
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Jeff M. Poulin
This is Why Change? The Podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera
Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs
It's Rachael here.
Ashraf Hasham
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk
And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin
Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question, why change? Alright, let's get started. Hello, and welcome to today's episode of The Why Change podcast, a podcast for the Creative Generation. I'm your host, Jeff Poulin and I am pleased to be joined by my co-host for today's episode, Rachael Jacobs. Hey, Rachel.
Rachael Jacobs
Hey, Jeff, how are you doing?
Jeff M. Poulin
Oh, doing great. It's great to be with you. As we span a day, it is my evening, your morning, how we like to hang out between the US and Australia. For our listeners out there,in our first few episodes of the podcast, we got to know our co-hosts- if you haven't had a chance to listen to those, I would highly encourage you to scroll on back through our feed and check them out. Rachel, we heard a little bit about your work teaching at the university and about your artistic practice and bollywood dance and Lira, and how your interests and engagement in politics impacted your creative work- but, it truly feels like a lifetime has passed since we spoke about all of that. So, what's the latest, what's been going on in your world?
Rachael Jacobs
Oh, there's so much going on and acknowledging, Jeff, that my world is the Gadigal Land of the Eora Nation where I'm sitting right now, which a lot of our listeners will know as Sydney in Australia. So, acknowledging that Islam has devastated and it's all happening. So, I will start with a little bit of contextual information that Australia is coming through relatively unscathed from the COVID crisis. So, a lot of people are watching our theaters and our festivals that are on- and I know, so I mentioned this with a bit of a heavy heart because I know that is not the experience of all of our friends around the world. We are incredibly lucky and incredibly privileged to have full theaters and music concerts, and we resumed dancing in bars and nightclubs. So, look, it's all happening. One of the things that I did last week as well is the critical conversations, they are still ongoing as well. I participated in OZDance, that's our peak dance body here in Australia. They had a conversation about how to be anti-racist in dance, and what we need to do to set up practices of color and bodies of color in dance practice. Now, as a dancer, I'm very open about it. And, the reason I was asked to be a guest, I left dance about 20 years ago, because they were so racist. It was such a racially exclusive space. And, for your listeners, I am a woman of Color- I'm an Indian, Australian- and so, it just made a point of reflection on how much the world has changed, that they would dedicate this time. And would, I guess, bring me back to have this conversation and bring other artists of Color, including First Nations artists of Color, back to have that conversation as well. The conversation is ongoing. And of course, these things have to be more than token- it is the critical conversation. But it was just really nice to be a part of that at this stage and see the world concentrating on other crises apart from the pandemic.
Jeff M. Poulin
Certainly, the same thing has been happening here in the United States, especially as we were not unscathed as Australia was coming through this pandemic, losing almost a half a million people and growing. However, we've had a surge in vaccinations and there's now a light at the end of the tunnel. And we're starting to feel that, but it is interesting because the dialogues that are occurring about this confluence of crises, the multiple crises of 2020, as we like to call it, you know, is is something that we are, we're still reckoning with and it really has brought to the fore these generations long conversations that have needed to be had those critical conversations that you were talking about- about the wrongs against our Indigenous Peoples. And here in the United States, there's tremendous violence against Asian-Americans because of the rhetoric that was used about the pandemic. What I find absolutely most fascinating though, is the role of cultural bearers and cultural leaders and artists. Those dialogues that are talking about Asian culture and Asian-American art, and how that can be part of this conversation about the wonderful art that was created out of protests from the Black Lives Matter movement responding to the murders of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery, and Brianna Taylor and so many others- and it's been really interesting to see us harness a moment of collective pause. That happened during a health crisis where we had to be at home, we had time to sit and think rather than rush from appointment to appointment, or train to plane and leverage that now, it's definitely not happening with everybody, but I do think that artists are at some of the center of driving that continued dialogue. Are you seeing the same thing happen in Australia?
Rachael Jacobs
Absolutely, the artists continue to be thought leaders and community leaders, and lead with hope and positivity, but also hold up a mirror on so many of those problems, issues, marginalization that people experience, and give us another lens on that world. And that this encapsulates the role of artists in our society. And so, what we, I guess, have to match with that is that we have that moment of pause, the relentless pace of the world, often doesn't give us space to do this kind of reflection. So, how do we value artists? How do we move forward to making sure that that place is valued, that it is, without precarity, that's really important for our artists, and that we grow the community of artists as well- that that is a world that is inviting, and that is a warm world that is welcoming, and that people feel that they do have agency in that space as well.
Jeff M. Poulin
Surely. I find it interesting to hear some of those terms about our field, I think the field that we both are a part of, and we share this world of people that operates at the intersection of Arts and Culture and Education and young people and policy and education systems. t is true, there's so much that goes on in that little niche world, but we do find those really deep connections between people about creating change and about mentoring folks that are coming up in the next generation. I mean, I think back to some of the physical spaces pre-pandemic that you and I have shared, where we've had that moment of true camaraderie and coming together of fellowship. And even if we might disagree on topics, particularly, you know, when it comes to education policy, or funding strategies, or what have you, that it is that warm and welcoming space. That's something that I love so much about our field is that the very nature of what we preach, when we think about young people, right- how we share space with youth, how we create safe spaces for risk- that our field also embodies that in our kind of large scale operations as a sector. And that's something that I just love so much, it creates conversations like this, and opportunities like this podcast to even exist.
Rachael Jacobs
Yeah, Jeff, actually, if you don't mind, I want to ask you about that. Because Creative Generation has given so much space to the voices of young people, and it's really unusual, at least it's a little bit unusual in my world, is that it has to be a conscious effort. So, how do you find that conversation? Do you find it to be a really fertile conversation where you are? Or do you find that it takes lots of effort to have to go there, I actually really love what you've done in this space. So, I guess, tell me a little bit about what inspires you to place youth voices at the center?
Jeff M. Poulin
Well, it's been a journey, to say the least, and it really does stem from our history, just as it began as a research project. In that research project, we really wanted to center the voices of young people as we understood about how arts and cultural education could not only impact youth, but also how those now creative youth could impact their own communities. And so, we actually started by creating a value statement, and those are the same values- our principles, I think is what we call them- that are on our website today. And that truly guides all of our work. Now, the findings of that first research project, ultimately uncovered that though we may, as practitioners, educators, artists, community organizers, and so forth, have that value and center young people. Oftentimes, it's the very, very restricted systems that govern our work. Those funding systems or education systems that create the barriers to actually full realization of our ideals. And so, when we put it into operation in April of 2019, when we were getting started, it was part of our effort to not only engage young creatives at every step of our process, but it was our goal to sort of be like the football linebackers that were holding back those systems that wanted to just pummel what we were trying to do. And so, we've fought a lot of battles, ones that aren't very public, with academic publishers, with funders, with research designers- to say, you know we understand that, you know, in the world of academic publishing, every author has a PhD. If you really want to have youth voices in this journal, you're not going to have people with a PhD, because they're going to be 16, 17, 18 years old. If you want to have young people, being the researchers in their communities, we must give them latitude to pursue their own research questions to go down that route, no matter what is, quote, unquote, best practice of designing a research question. And so, it's really about that modeling of the exact practice that we want to talk about in our organizational structure, which is something that is very hard, and it does take a lot of time and effort. But, I appreciate your kind words, it's been a journey, and we've certainly not always gotten it right. We've learned a lot also through this journey, but it's something that we're also committed to sharing. So, I actually know that this summer, we will be releasing a publication about some of the things that we've learned in that space in the sharing of power. That's called cyclical mentorship. It's this idea that we all learn from each other, and how we put in place those structures that will allow for that idea of reimagining who the question asker and the answer giver are.
Rachael Jacobs
Yeah, wow. I think that's such good re-imagining. Because I think when you center youth voices, probably the most important thing is not to keep saying that youth are the future- they are artmaking, they are living their lives right now. They are leading right now, the world's most critical conversations around the climate crisis and things like that are being led by young people. So, if we don't give them, I guess, this leadership at this latitude- if we don't step aside, then we're really denying ourselves such important opportunities for growth.
Jeff M. Poulin
You know, Rachel, you just teed up our interview for the episode very perfectly. Just the other day, I had the opportunity to speak with Patrick Kabanda, who wrote a book that is called The Creative Wealth of Nations. He describes how arts and culture and specifically all of chapter two talks about how arts education contributes to sustainable development and its strategy by employing young creatives and their positive impact in their communities on the world and on the sustainable development of our communities. And just like you were saying, it's about how we bring up the next generation of artistically minded people to be able to contribute positively to not only their lives but their communities and the world at large. So, why don't we give our listeners a quick listen right after this.
ARTS BETTER THE LIVES OF EVERYONE (ABLE) AD
Creative Generation is proud to support the ABLE assembly, Arts Better the Lives of Everyone conference hosted by the Berkeley Institute for Arts, Education and Special Needs, taking place online on April 10, and 11th, 2021. The theme of the 2021 ABLE assembly is intersectionality, disability and arts education. To learn more and register, please visit www.berkeley.edu/table. That's b e r k l e e.edu / A B L E. See you there.
Jeff M. Poulin
Welcome Patrick. I am thrilled to have you here on the Wy Change podcast. I remember a few years ago walking through a bookstore here in Washington DC and perusing the shelves to find a book that caught my eye, and I noticed the title and I picked it up. And I noticed that it was a signed author signed copy and was just enthralled with the topics of the book and knew that it was something I had to buy. So, I did that, I read it, and I tweeted that I read it because I was so impressed, and then we connected, you reached out and said, hey, yes, thanks for enjoying my book. Ever since then I knew that I wanted to have more conversations with you and definitely to have you on this podcast. So, thank you so much for being here and for being so kind as an author to reach out to someone who loved your work.
Patrick Kabanda
Thank you so much, Jeff, for having me here. I am very, very excited to be on your podcast, which we've been talking about for some time. Now it's finally nice that this is happening.
Jeff M. Poulin
Absolutely, I think back to the pre-COVID times when we did get together at a small coffee shop near the White House, both of us living near DC., and I learned so much of your story. So, for our listeners, can you give us a little bit of your backstory, how you got into the arts and into international development, and eventually how you wrote a book on the topic?
Patrick Kabanda
Yeah, so I got into the art of music really, to begin with, when I first heard the pipe organ at the cathedral in Kampala, Uganda where I grew up. And so, during the cathedral choir, because I really wanted to play the organ, but you couldn't play the organ unless you're part of a choir. So, that's how I really got into music to begin with, seriously. Now the cathedral there is Anglican,and, in a way, it's modeled after St. Paul's Cathedral in London, which I'm sure you know very well, they try to model that kind of excellence. So, that was around the early mid 80s and Uganda was entangled in all sorts of economic and political turmoil. So, my mother- who raised us- was a kindergarten teacher,and my upbringing was, you know, humble. And I think my story is very common with many children who grew up in a circumstance like I did in Uganda. But in music I found refuge, I found something to hold on to, and later I started actually to make a living teaching piano. You may know in some countries, many countries, rich people are the ones who have the pianos, but they tend to collect dust. And somehow, I would go to these rich people's home to teach them piano, and they would pay me something which was great. And also, of course, I was playing the organ at the church, and I was playing at events, and also I was playing at the hotel. So, I ended up actually making quite a decent income. I was really young, it was seriously my teenage years- and that's why when I opened up a preview of my book, I said, when I was a child I lived in two worlds, because on one hand, there was this world of poverty and political turmoil and a lot of really terrible things happening, but then, on the other hand, there was music for me, which also brought joy in many, many other ways. So, I quickly realized that music can open doors, and that's why I've been trying to try to see how we can use the arts to promote development. But also, I grew up being told that, you know, music will never take you anywhere and that I will starve to death. That attitude is widespread, as you may know. And it may explain why the US musicians aren’t taken seriously in our education systems, not to mention our economic and social policy priorities. So, I am a firm believer that you, all of us, are economists, because when you decide that you want to buy a cup of coffee, or when you want to eat or how you can save money, those are all economic decisions. So, I think that the acts are also part of the economic system anyway- how we draw on them to really promote social and economic progress, broadly speaking.
Jeff M. Poulin
Absolutely. I, you know, agree with everything that you just said, I think we all have stories of that living in two worlds and in all of our different ways, and that your passion towards using the arts to ingrain the arts as part of our economic and social policy landscapes. It's something that I just so firmly believe in- right there with you. So, your book, it's called The Creative Wealth of Nations, which comes from another well-known book. So, can you tell us a little bit more about why you wanted to write a book in the first place and why this book, why this topic?
Patrick Kabanda
I actually never really set out to write a book, the book came out by accident, so to speak, and I'm actually happy that's the way it was because I would have been very disappointed because writing the book, as you may know, or may have heard is really not that easy. So, it's a very, very intense process. So, I'm glad I didn't say oh, I'm going to work and write this specific book, it just came together by chance. And again, many, many things about my life end up being that way. That's why sometimes if things don't go my way, I don't complain so much. I happen to be this kind of person, if you block this door, I end up going in the back door. And then when I am there, I find a $100 bill, which is right there- just on a floor like, oh, should we find a nice painting? Or I see an apple, which is right there, and I'm hungry. So, basically that book really came out like, I was not really looking to do that- and that was very helpful. But the book came out of my World Bank paper. The story behind that World Bank paper is so interesting, because a magician is the one who has sent me to the World Bank, and when I was there, they were trying to revamp the World Bank- come up with a new kind of engagement to promote shared prosperity, and things like that. And my book had to do with how can the US be part of that. The first title of that paper was, like, the World Bank Strategy for something like that. My boss then, who was the Cief Economist, came up and said, please send me something else. So I really panicked. So, in the process, I ended up remaking the title. So, I sent him this, and then, he insisted, of course, on the first page having that title, was not the best thing to do,but I had just put it together. And because I felt a little bit of being reprimanded by these zero types, I'm like, okay, why don't I come up with a different title? So, I thought, and by then I was consuming a lot of these creative economy reports, and thought, why don't I call it the Cultural Wealth of Nations? Then I googled, and actually there is a book from Stanford Press, which is called the Cultural Wealth of Nations. But again, because of these UN reports, there are all these Creative Economy Reports. So I thought,, what about the Creative Wealth of Nations? So I went and googled, and I didn't find anything, I went to the next cubicle to another consultant and asked, could you check to see if you can find anything similar? And he said, oh, Patrick, this is a beautiful title. Are you sure? No, no, let's use it. Let's check. So he looked and after he says, I don't see any, man, you're good to go- this is a beautiful title. And of course, the title draws from Adam Smith- because if you take away the word creative, it’s really the Wealth of Nations. So, that's how the book got together. But the paper at the World Bank came from my thesis at the Fletcher School, which is called, Where Culture Leads, Trade Follows, about the idea of trying to promote music for development in Uganda. So, that's how all this came together.
Jeff M. Poulin
Wow, so you really took your own sort of lived experience, your research, to solve one of the problems that you identified from your lived experience. And then you had sort of a push in the right direction, a light nudge from a mentor of yours. Amartya Sen, can you tell us a little bit about the influence of Sen’s work on what you do? Here at Creative Generation, we've done a lot in that space for Martha Nussbaum as well.Ttalk a little bit about the role of capabilities in the arts and in development.
Patrick Kabanda
So, Amartya Sen spoke to me partly, and this year, I think we talked about always running into things by chance. So, I went to the Fletcher School wanting to write about music and economic development, because I could not believe no one had done this. In fact, I must tell you that I am lucky that this Venezuela orchestra, where you have Gustavo De Mayo, who actually did help me get into free jazz school because I used to go there for a few years to say, look, I wanted this program for music and development. Does this work? Can this orchestra, which really became very famous andI think they had a program on 60 Minutes with El Sistema. The program and then, because I think 60 minutes so, PBS is watched pretty much you know, well, a lot of people looked at it. I went back to the admissions office and talked to one of our offices. I think what you're doing in Venezuela, is that this will be very, very interesting. So, that's how they warmed up to my idea, and then I went into the program. When I went into the program, I really could not find an economist who was interested in the kinds of things I wanted to do. So, I'm like, okay, well, what should I do- then two things happened. One of them, I enrolled in a class on law and development, because I knew that intellectual property was going to be one of the angles I would to take. So, and I told you, the professor said, look, I've been here for so many, many years, no one has ever written about intellectual property and development in Africa, it would be nice to see your paper. And the idea was like, if you write a paper, instead of taking a quiz, you can turn that paper into a thesis-and that's exactly the strategy I wanted to do. But oh boy, coming up with a one paragraph hypothesis wasn't the easiest thing. I also actually benefit from people who are honest and telling you what things are like, because a professor will send a paragraph of emails right back- Patrick, this is very nice but saw this opportunity, you are not on track-this hypothesis doesn't make sense. So, try it a second time, Patrick, this is bullshit. I'm exaggerating, but in our case, like, okay, I’ll try again, thanks , Professor Sonicos, so I tried again. And I think the professor has actually had lived in the Congo.So, third time I tried it-maybe fourth time, I heard, why don't you go to the library and ask for help. Go to the library and say that you want to write about the arts, music, and economic development in Africa and look at how copyrights or intellectual property come into play. So, I want to reference Dr. Britt, a reference librarian at Fletcher. And, uh, she said, okay, great, I will look at this. And within a day or hours or so whatever, it was very quick, she came up with a list and guess who was on top, Amartya Sen. And actually, Amartya says, what came on top of us was a very short preface. He had written for the World Bank music program when they wanted to try to do the music industry in West Africa, and elsewhere in Africa. And he's had to do with what I really talk about- it’s like, look, music is great for us, we enjoy music, and also if we have the right entitlements like copyright, maybe artists are more likely to actually gain better, we need to pay attention to that. So, because of our copy, this is wonderful thing to say- I went, and I wrote this out. And I knew if a professor says this doesn’t work, I can't write this paper. And thankfully the professor now gave me the go to write that 30-page paper within three weeks and I actually, did. It came in later because of a required reading he was talking about with these things in his book about development as freedom, as opposed to doing the things they should choose to do in life or things they have reason to value. As someone who has been told don't play music; you're going to stop today. I'm like, okay, but it's the music I want to do. Things people want to do, things they have reason to and value spoke to me directly. So, I said, let me reach out to him to see if he could be my advisor. So, I went down to Harvard where he teaches, and I could never know how famous he was. Long story short, I left his office thinking that oh, I don't think he will be interested in advising me because I'm not a PhD student, I don't go to Harvard, and he's very famous. Many famous teachers I know, from my own experience sometimes don't have time.So, I was wrong. I never followed up until I finished a thesis, and then he was so interested in that thesis and actually ended up saying we should talk. So that'sthe connection.
Jeff M. Poulin
That's incredible. I mean, what a tremendous set of opportunities that really allowed you to develop what I think is the most important connection.I'll be really bold and cheeky to say that I think what you've done is you've drawn the line between the cultivation of artists,, the Arts &Culture sector, and the community and economic development or sustainable development, to use the globalized term. That's really about how people and places can thrive- and that's something that is just so intriguing to me. And I know that a lot of the people that are our listeners, and a lot of the work that we do at Creative Generation is focused on democratizing arts and cultural education and also connecting those themes and those programs and the pedagogies to larger global frameworks. So, can you talk a little bit about- there's one chapter that's about arts education in your book, can you talk about the explicit connection that you draw between arts,cultural education and sustainable development and what sustainable development might mean for the arts community?
Patrick Kabanda
Okay, first of all, I should actually point out a very interesting title about our sustainable niche. Because, broadly speaking, sustainability means meeting the needs of today, while preserving the resources for tomorrow. So that's very, very easy to see. I think the gentlemen I quote I cite in the book is called David Gale, it says that, you know, the word sustainable can be nebulous, it's sufficiently vague to mean quite a lot, or nothing at all. So, you can interpret it in many ways. But you know, the yes can help us get a green economy. Because of our culture, jobs are greener, it's not that difficult to see that, you know, you're teaching music three, nothing to do with doing extractive industries. But I think even more interestingly, is the connection with chapter two, in the book on asset allocation, this can really help us come up with new ideas. That's why the book called Wonderland: How Play Made the Modern World by Steven Johnson, is really very important, because he points that out, you know, the word ‘play’ shows up in many areas- as a play, playing music as an intro, so just playing to have fun. And I'd say education cuts across all these areas. If we want to come up with new ideas, we can say playing leads, ideas follow. You don't believe how many great ideas come into the world, because people are just trying to have fun. And I said, the question is important. Now even this connection is the one to come up with new ways of looking at self-sustainable buildings. Now even the age of COVID, look at social distance. What is urban design? What is interior design? You know, how do we- as if you are someone into architecture- make sure that the building doesn't take a lot of energy. Some of that is not just engineering students, unlocking our minds. How can we come up with new ways of really conserving energy through batteries? All these things, really, if you look at the attitude, the mind. So, I'd say education is like a grease you have to use, it is really one of the things we need. I'm not trying to say that we should not emphasize other things, but I think we miss out greatly. Because if you look at examples, all the way from Leonardo da Vinci, even to contemporary people like Steve Jobs, maybe it's not that into like Leonardo da Vinci, but there is always a thread of creativity. And yes, how do we get that to help us grow, but also the issue I want to talk about here with arts education is also to do with unsustainable consumption. Where like, I believe that sometimes we buy so many things. Now going back to me, I sometimes play music, of course, I would like to be paid, but it fulfills me. I really don't need a BMW. Someone else may have reason, but I'm content that music can fill me for that gap. And I think it can, that kind of thing can meet too many other people, many others can get fulfilled with that. Pick up joy from doing the artwork. I'm not trying to say that there are not many artists who want to buy things, as consumerism promoted a lot of pop culture and many artists, that's really not the same thing. But, I think we all can agree that going to play Sonata with your friend can bring so much joy. You don't feel so deprived that you didn't get this kind of material thing, or even culture toys is also unexperienced, which is great. But also, the other thing, which is arts education through IVF. I want to explain to you- climate science works this one, I start telling you all this complicated science, you may be able to appreciate it and understand how brilliant I am and appreciate all that- but to many, many people, it's really not that if I come and tell your story, if I can, I'm going to show a picture. All this is artistic work. And that's education in the way you're almost looking at it as education in some way that we can actually understand climate change via react because the US can portray our other story more emotionally than just scientific methods, just regurgitating. And I thinkthat the UN local had a lot of climate science. By then we had a different administration, where climate change wasn't really believed, although we have the science. So, in this case, we cannot just promote more data, which is very, very important, but how do we connect people and convert them in a way or get them to act? And I think this is very, very important.
Jeff M. Poulin
Certainly, and you've said that you mentioned the UN and the UN a few years ago published a new set of goals that built from the Millennium Development Goals and, and other frameworks. And these ones are called the Sustainable Development Goals. So, it really aligns with everything that you're talking about. But Arts and Culture is missing from the SDGs. Yes. So, talk to me a little bit about how we can focus on developing creativity through the arts, and how that applied creativity can help solve these global challenges.
Patrick Kabanda
I'm so glad you brought up that question. And I wish we had spoken earlier, you asked me that question about 23, 24 years ago, because it came up when my book was being put together. And there was this question of- Okay, how can we look at sustainable development more seriously, and have it in there with you. It goes back to one review, I say that they have not really done more there. But you could use your book to shoot like how we want to understand climate science data for sustainability. Look at our education. In a way, it's almost like going somewhere, and they only provided you with a motorbike. But you know what, you can actually go there by train. And they did not mention that train then, but the unit mode of transport, how are we going to go there? Okay, well, let's go quickly- maybe the train will be better and faster, lucky, more climate friendly. And if it can take a lot more people, I hope that kind of metaphor works, even if it wasn't mentioned anywhere, it’s a mode so maybe in the other way that coca will basically we can look at Well, okay, the arts can be very cause then said also, I think there is one thing which is doing meaningful work, if I'm not mistaken in the indoor Sustainable Development Goals, what is many, many artists, I unless I'm mistaken, do what they do, partly because they find it incredibly meaningful. So, you are talking about weavers in Panama, weavers in Uganda- musicians wonder, you know, people in Korea doing KPop, whatever it is, people want to do pottery- the people doing pottery in Japan. And again, some of these can even be exported in international markets, looking at people who are promoting tourism in Egypt, know all these if it's meaningful work, they are also part of it. Does that make sense? Even if they may not have been specifically a mission, you can see that they can be part of you.
Jeff M. Poulin
So, how do you think from your work in this space, we can best cultivate the creativity of the next generation to bring this movement towards sustainability and global connectedness and equality to reality?
Patrick Kabanda
Yeah, so yeah, that's a very good question as well, and is a tough one. But one thing is don't give up. Actually, I think this was just mentioned about maybe a month or so ago, two months ago. So, NDP had a talk there, and one young person asked me, what can we do to make sure this is promoted? I think it's to do with gender equality, young people being like, oh, one thing to do, don't give up. Everything is important. So, you may have your idea and you play that, and people feel like there's nothing, don't give up. One thing I draw on this, partly because of these days, it's in my mind so much, because of politics it is always there. So, look at Mike Huckabee, my copy, and me- I think the only common thing we may have, maybe two, we are both human beings, maybe we are men, and we both like music so much. But other than that, I think we may not have so much in common, but I actually do cite him in my book. And the reasoning is why, as governor, he went and passed a law, which I think is still on the books, he says you can't I think get a high school diploma in Arkansas, if that's how you pronounce it, without taking up this 40 minute of the hours, part time, or something like that. But he did not have to be confused, some convinced because of the points we've made of climate change, for example, or whatever. But, as governor, he didn't need to use governor, someone with liberal beliefs in music. He went and said, this is what we're going to do and that passes, but he had the authority as a governor. So yeah, if you run for office, okay, and you become President of the United States or the next Secretary of the US,, you can just tell us- build a team with all these people you have. And running for office can be very, very powerful, important for that. Then the other thing, too, is like look at Columbia, again, the President in Columbia. He and I may not have so much in common in political philosophy, whatever. But he has this thing called the orange economy, which is a creative economy and just issued a bond about which is a creative bond in that if I want to finance your programs, I can raise money using this bond. If I want to promote our certification in Florida somewhere who can issue a bond to do this or want to buy computers for artists in some place, you can issue bonds, but being president had a lot to do with that. That's, in fact, I think now he's calling who they call wrote this manual or book or the Inter-American Development Bank of America is now that means of culture. So, you can see how politics,you probably know that Jeff, you and I can come up with many, many important things about the bureaucrats, World Bank or elsewhere, you and don't really take it at heart may not get where to go. There's so many lakes, politicians in Uganda don't really want to take a CSA, may not go that far doesn't mean it doesn’t work. But, I think you can see that. So, those two are very, very important things. But then the other thing which we need to do is to connect with other subjects, as I said, and I think this is a time to talk about that quote I had mentioned to you, which comes from the book by Robert and Michelle Rubenstein. And actually, I think a colleague of yours at Americans for the Arts brought this book to my attention; the book is called Sparks of Genius, and this quote comes from there. Despite the current lip service paid to integrating the curriculum, surely, interdisciplinary courses are rare, and transdisciplinary curricula that span the breadth of human knowledge, almost unknown. Moreover, at the level of creative process, where it really counts, the intuitive tools of thinking that tie one discipline to another, I entirely ignored. And here is what's very, very interesting- we have to remember this, mathematicians are supposed to think only in mathematics, writers only in words, musicians only in notes, and so forth, and they’re left by half understanding the nature of thinking, to just only half understand how to teach our students, only half understand how to go on to say, watching them also still, that this kind of education leaves out huge chunks of creative processes. And this needs to be reversed as a writing the book and created and creative toys, sometimes called creative natives can be part of that.
Jeff M. Poulin
We at Creative Generation totally agree. We work with young creatives all the time, and those who are committed to cultivating their creativity, which is why your work has been so inspirational to me, and why I think everyone should read your book. Well, this brings us to the end of our time, but as we on the Why Change podcast go forth and meet with people all around the world and we get to know the work that they do, we want to understand what keeps you going in just a few short answers. So, I'm going to ask you five rapid fire questions to conclude our interview. Are you ready? Alright, first, who inspires you?
Patrick Kabanda
So, first of all, imagine saying Mohammad Yunus, Toni Morrison, Bach. You know, Da Vinci,among others, I will go on and on but those are some of the core people who come to mind.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yes, those are fantastic. Certainly a lot that people can Google. What keeps you motivated?
Patrick Kabanda
Ah, the arts. That's it.
Jeff M. Poulin
Where are you most at home?
Patrick Kabanda
Oh, in Kampala, though now I spend more time in Washington. Now with COVID I can't even travel that much, but definitely a more atomic compiler. There's nothing like that wonderful weather and fresh mangoes and passion fruit juice from there.
Jeff M. Poulin
You're making me want to travel again, too. How do you stay focused?
Patrick Kabanda
I actually draw from my musical training. And I used to think this is passion. But, I just say wonderful gentlemen, think from a book writers’ assignments. Some group of publishers said it actually isn't important to break things into small portions, even writing the book. So, for me, my musical training is that because you know, targeted traps, break things apart, give it some Please come back, we find things like that. So, musical training is the answer.
Jeff M. Poulin
And lastly, why change?
Patrick Kabanda
The arts can promote economic and social development, although we tend to operate as if that's not the case. So, that's really true. And I think we believe that because we have been led to believe that that's the way things are. So, why change- that has to change.
Jeff M. Poulin
Thank you very much, Patrick. I so appreciate you being on the Why Change podcast. It's been wonderful spending some time with you and it's nice to chat with you again.
Patrick Kabanda
Thank you so much. It's been a delight to be here and keep up the great, great work you're doing.
Jeff M. Poulin
Rachel, I am just so impressed with Patrick's path from Kampala, Uganda to university publishing to working with large economics institutions like the World Bank. Being an economist, as a musician, which I know is something that you also do, you work with some large institutions, you just put out a big report for UNESCO, looking at the futures of education. Tell me a little bit about what you think of that space, sort of navigating the multiple hats that you have to wear and applying the different parts of who you are to achieve these things.
Rachael Jacobs
It's absolutely incredible, isn't it? Listening to that interview, and finding out how those spaces are navigated? Because, I have to admit, when I first heard this interview, I thought, wow, an economist, you know, I'm a pretty dedicated anti-capitalist, how is this going to work. And then you just look at the wealth of Patrick's knowledge and experience, and I did some googling, I fell into a Google hole reading about his incredible work. This is the intersection of art, creativity, and economics. At those high levels, it really is important, those agendas do filter down, even though you might think, you know, here's me running a very small Bollywood dance school in Sydney, here's me with my students in Western Sydney, those agendas really, really do filter down. And they do impact policy, in your home, in your situations. So, obviously interested that he didn't name it in the interview, but Patrick has called himself an “undercover artist”, and I absolutely love that because I think there are sometimes in our life, whether it is walking into a large scale institution, or into a funder, or into a family lunch, or you become the undercover artists, where you kind of shield a part of yourself that you know, is part of the answer to what they're looking for, until it's the right time to unleash that creativity conversation.
Jeff M. Poulin
So, tell me, where are you an undercover artist, I'm curious.
Rachael Jacobs
I am an undercover artist in a lot of spaces, and I think politics would be one of them. So, in my previous podcast, I've talked about being an artist, a political activists, but I do engage in party politics in Australia, I'm a member of a political party, and I've run for election before, it's a hard conversation to show up to the public and say, I really believe that you should elect an artist to Parliament, because the people that they would genuinely be looking for, the stereotype of what a good politician looks like, might be a lawyer or someone who'd been to business school or, or something like that. So, sometimes, depending on the space, I don't lead with that conversation- that I'm here to start an artistic revolution from parliament. That is a far bridge for some people. And I thought Patrick made that bridge really beautifully between parts of his life that had been really humble and really community focused to going to these large-scale organizations like the World Bank, but that same philosophy goes through so that you are always an artist, whether you're undercover or not- you are, you don't stop being an artist. As soon as you step into a political debate, or into parliament or into the World Bank. It's not that you discard that part of yourself, you take it with you to lead the conversation. It's not just to enrich what you do, it is part of leading that conversation by being an artist.
Jeff M. Poulin
I totally agree. And it's fascinating, because I feel like my own journey as an artist really ended quite young, I haven't, you know, created a dance piece or a theater piece, for example, in a long time. But it's funny because I learned certain creative capabilities, if you will, to use the term that we talked about and the research of Creative Generation, that I now apply in a lot of ways I find great creativity in designing syllabi for the classes that I teach, I find great creativity in- we just moved into a house and organizing my space and then designing the space for maximum leisure or productivity, depending on what I'm going for that day. But, that idea of sort of applied creativity is something that I've been I've been really wrestling with, because I think, and I've said this before and I will say it again, that certainly we don't promote arts and culture or arts and education to have every single person on the planet be an artist. Yikes. I mean, we do not want that, that is too monolithic. That would be nuts. But I do think that every single person on the planet should know how to effectively apply their creativity in whatever context that they're working in. So, I don't know, especially as an educator, what do you think about this notion of applied creativity.
Rachael Jacobs
I absolutely agree. And this is something that I talk about with my students. I'm a lecturer at Western Sydney University and my students are training to be teachers. So, for me to stand up and say, you were born an artist, you are an artist today- that to them is a statement that a lot of them can't comprehend. So, what I'm saying to them is, you're not an artist because you didn't dance Swan Lake last night, that is not what we're aiming for you to do. You don't need to be going off or writing your own songs. If you do that, that is fantastic. You don't need to have painted the Sistine Chapel because that is their version of what an artist is. It's often steeped in elitism, and it's often steeped in Western Culture as well. So, a lot of my students often say to me, I definitely you know, do create at home. But that's not like what you're talking about. And so, I've realized I've got to reframe my conversation from the first day from the first conversation that we have, that redefines what art is and what being an artist is. And it might be more about thinking like an artist, it might be more about, you know,\ tapping into that creative potential that we all have. And it might be more about spreading the word that it is okay to think creatively. It is okay to have moments of doubt, it is okay to live in shades of grey. You don't have to know the answer all the time. You can sit with ambiguity, you can live in liminal spaces. These are fine things for humans to be doing. I think that way, we're going to get better outcomes for the whole world, whether we're deciding, like you said, how to rearrange your space at home, or if we're taking pause to say there's a global crisis at the moment, what should we do about many of the global crises that we are dealing with right now?
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, I so appreciate what his perspective was on this term, like creative natives, right? Which is embedded in this idea that if truly everyone had access to arts and culture, that they would grow up with a propensity for creativity, like every one of my generation grew up with a computer and is considered a digital native, right, that same line of thinking. But, it's really interesting, because I did the interview with Patrick and then I was driving around town running errands, and I was listening to a podcast that was a conversation that was led by Kara Swisher. And she was talking about this trend that's happening in big tech, in the Googles and the Microsoft's of the world, that here in the United States, they're actually getting government contracts for the military. And the creative teams within their ranks are saying, no, no, no, we never signed up to apply our creativity to designed military infrastructure or weapons or anything that could cause harm. And so it's really interesting, because I also think that as we democratize creativity in the way that we're, we've been discussing that we also have to have a dialogue sort of about the ethics of that, and how we want to spend our creativity and what autonomy people have in how and where and why they get creative to, to make the world a better place through their eyes. And what that really means as we think about impacts for for politics or, or the military, for example, in this this one thing, I don't know, I feel like you might have some strong thoughts on that.
Rachael Jacobs
I do, I do to no surprise, very strong thoughts on it. Because what I am saying is that creativity has been kind of bastardized. And it's been captured by the corporate sector, by really capitalist aims. And, you know, now being a creative means going and making a digital device that might die in two years and contribute to landfill and make a whole lot of money out of that, for personal gain or for the gain of shareholders or something like that. And this is where creativity can't exist in a vacuum. It must exist with philosophy, with history, with science, with the collective wisdom that we have with economics, you know. I'm sitting here and, hand on heart, a bit of a changed woman, that this all has to work together. Because if it doesn't, the forces that are the strongest and the most powerful, they will take control of the conversation, they will absolutely come in and infiltrate that. And what we don't want is creativity to work towards the demise of the world. We want it to work towards the hope of the world. We want it to work towards the betterment of the world. If we want it to work towards saving the world, whereas if art or creativity becomes a tool for the demise of this world, well, then what even is the point? What have we done there? We can't just liberate some people, we can't just liberate those who have access to that device, or we can't just liberate those who are able to have the best art lessons or something like that, that is not liberation. So, how do we turn this on its head? For me, it is that critical conversation between art philosophies, history, science, economics, and all the other forces where we can take the best of ourselves and put that into practice?
Jeff M. Poulin
You know, I think you had a couple of quotes that could go on a T shirt it is that great. And that's a wonderful note for us to bring our conversation to a close, we could, no doubt, go for hours and hours on that point. And, I hope to do that again in person with you sometime very soon. So, Rachel, as we close out this episode, what do you have coming up? What should listeners be paying attention to in the next few weeks or months happening in the arts and creativity world?
Rachael Jacobs
Well, in this really exciting podcast series that just keeps flowing and flying with such incredible people, I'm not just talking about me, we do have some really amazing guests coming up. So, Eric booth is somebody who I've met through the Lincoln Center, and who I know is a good friend of yours, and of Creative Generation, other podcasters here as well. So, I'm going to be talking a little bit to Eric about what field building means to him, and what it means to craft an artistic life, and dedicate that to growing that field. I think that's going to be a really, really interesting conversation. Eric is really practice based. So, we're going to hear a lot about how things work on the ground. I also want to have some conversations with some incredible people in Australia, while making art on the margins, including a Palestinian poet, including a First Nations dancer, I'd like to bring them together to find out what makes them persevere. Because when you have so many barriers in front of us, I think one of the easiest things that you could do is to shut down, but it is what actually makes their creativity stronger.
Jeff M. Poulin
That's also exciting. I absolutely can't wait for those conversations. I myself have an exciting few week coming up, I'll actually be working back with some young dancers in communities here in the US. And that will be a great return to a sense of normalcy, something that I haven't done for quite some time in the pandemic. And we'll definitely be having a number of conversations that may or may make their way on the podcast, while doing that work. So, I'm really looking forward to it. It sounds like you have a lot coming up. Thanks for another great conversation.
Rachael Jacobs
I'm so excited. Jeff, thanks so much for having me.
Jeff M. Poulin
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Why Change, the podcast for Creative Generation. If you would like to support this podcast aimed at amplifying the voices of creative changemakers around the world, please consider donating through the link located in the episodes show notes. These show notes contain all sources discussed in the episode. Be sure to follow, like, subscribe, and share the Why Change podcast to make sure you and your networks get episodes delivered directly to you, and that you don't miss any stories of creative work happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, we'd love to hear from you. You can write to us at info@Creative-generation.org we'd love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. Our show was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Our music is by Distant Cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co-hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support. Here at Creative Generation, we're pleased to use anchor to produce the Why Change podcast if you haven't heard about Anchor. It's the easiest way to make a podcast. Let me explain. First, it's free. There are creation tools that allow you to record and edit your podcast right from your phone or computer. Anchor will distribute your podcast for you so it can be heard on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and many more. You can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. Download the Anchor app or go to anchor.fm to get started.
Episode Summary
By Valerie HD Killebrew
During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Jeff and Rachael discuss leading our way out of the pandemic with values at the forefront, centering young people and anti-racist practices specifically. Jeff speaks with author, musician, and economist, Patrick Kabanda about his book The Creative Wealth of Nations and the role of arts and cultural education in sustainable development. Patrick Kabanda, a Juilliard-trained organist and a Fletcher-trained international affairs professional, had his first book, The Creative Wealth of Nations published in May 2018 by Cambridge University Press, with foreword by the philosopher and Nobel economist Amartya Sen. Besides concertizing and lecturing worldwide, he has taught at Phillips Academy, consulted for the World Bank’s Office of the Senior Vice President and Chief Economist, and contributed to the World Development Report 2016 and to UNDP’s 2015 and 2019 Human Development Reports.
Throughout this episode there is discussion about the idea of “applied creativity” as a practice of leveraging creativity to take action. Patrick connects arts education to sustainable development as an example of applied creativity. Through the discussions it was noted there is a great push across job sectors for employees to leverage applied creativity. While the need to connect into and build one's creativity is prevalent, that is not always connected to artistry, resulting in the idea of the “undercover artist”. Patrick highlights the idea of “creativity natives” as opportunities for youth in today’s economy, similar to the value of being “digital natives”.
In this episode you’ll hear examples of what applied creativity can contribute to the artistry in everyone. Rachel and Jeff discuss how leveraging applied creativity across sectors, specifically in the technology industry, often results in the creation of products or processes for personal or corporate gain. However, the call to action is to apply creativity based in philosophy and collective wisdom towards the benefit of the world, versus creating barriers of access due to economical restrictions.