During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Jeff and Madeleine discuss the changes to their work throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, and the interdisciplinary leadership of teaching artists and cultural practitioners over the last year. Madeleine chats with Fié Neo, an interdisciplinary artist based in Singapore, who has worked as a fashion designer, participatory artist, and has applied her knowledge learned through sustainable agriculture and business to advance the field of socially engaged art.
In this episode you’ll learn:
What is socially engaged artistic practice?;
How our systems which support arts, education, and social change must continue to adapt...and how; and
About new opportunities to virtually engage with others and stay connected in artistic communities of practice.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
Jeff’s interview with Madeleine previously on the Why Change? Podcast
Special Issue Of Arts Education Policy Review Focuses On Community Arts Education In COVID
ABOUT FIÉ NEO
An interdisciplinary artist based in Singapore who makes socially engaged works through participatory public interventions, wearable art and film. She has performed and exhibited her works at Royal Albert Hall, Edinburgh Fringe Festival, London Design Festival, Gillman Barracks and others. Fié also hosts a podcast called Onions Talk. Connect with her on 'The Reconnection Playground', a series of participatory online wellness events that uses creative expression to hold space for authentic connection.
Where you can find Fié
Website: https://feeyehneo.wordpress.com
Podcast: https://anchor.fm/fie-neo
Instagram: @feeyeh_neo
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5Sx3YtkLxpdmeeZllzoGh6MJVMrSqvDj
Included in this episode are ads for:
This episode of Why Change? A Podcast for the Creative Generation was powered by Creative Generation. It was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Artwork by Bridget Woodbury. Music by Distant Cousins.
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Jeff M. Poulin
This is Why Change? the Podcast for the Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera
Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs
It's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk
And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin
Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Hello, and welcome to today's episode of The Why Change podcast. I'm your host, Jeff M. Poulin. And I'm pleased to be joined by my co-host for today's episode Madeleine McGirk. Hey, Madeleine.
Madeleine McGirk
Hi, thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.
Jeff M. Poulin
Absolutely. It's great to be in our standard recording process for this podcast and to be talking to you so regularly. You know, the last four episodes that we did, we got to know all of our podcasts co-hosts, and listeners, if you haven't had a chance to check out those conversations, you should definitely scroll on back through our feed and give them a listen, Madeleine, we heard about your work with the International Teaching Artists Collaborative (ITAC), your background with education charities and your policy work,and, you know, those women leaders who really inspire you. But you know, since we last spoke, it's been a few weeks, what's been going on in your world?
Madeleine McGirk
Oh, my gosh, so much. It's crazy, because I was listening back to the podcast,and I was like, wow, that was, like, scratching the surface. There are 20 things I didn't even talk about that day. So yeah, loads has been happening. A lot goes on in just a few weeks. So I was so pleased to be chatting today, we are about to launch a brand new climate focus project, which I'm really excited about, which will use teaching artists and their practice, as a means to really create meaningful shifts and communities around habits and mindsets to deal with the climate crisis, then we're going to take those, and we're going to turn those project models those methodologies, and use them as case studies in a wider curriculum for teaching artists. So these are two completely new initiatives for us, which I'm really excited about. And then once we have that framework for how to do that community work followed by wide scale dissemination, then we can really take that and channel it towards any social issue that we choose. So it's really a pilot for us,and I'm really excited about it. Also, we have been thinking a lot about hub development, which I can't say too much about right now, because we aren't in a position to launch yet. But I've been having great chats with people in different parts of the world, different regions, around establishing dedicated spaces there that will respond directly to the contexts that they're to be created by and for those communities and completely up to those areas, what they program and what issues they focus on,but with international support from our network. So it's a really exciting development, anyone who's done any looking at network theory knows you've got to have your active and responsive nodes. So it's a really exciting step towards that. So I hope to be able to say more about that in the next few months,but that would be kind of game changing for us. So yeah, it shouldn't for that.
Jeff M. Poulin
Those are both so exciting. I mean, one, the climate crisis is just paramount at this time. So I think really articulating how artists can be a part of that discourse is absolutely essential. And, you know, developing networks, that's that type of infrastructure, thinking and building is just absolutely my jam. And, you know, talking about network theory and things is something that not a lot of people do, but it's really important. And I think that's, you know, what you're talking about as a model that could be shared so widely and benefits so many folks, particularly in our sector that doesn't really have that, that common language or that standard infrastructure, like so many other sectors out there, right.
Madeleine McGirk
And if you can start widely spreading the word about what's possible, then hopefully that starts to shift things towards where communities and councils and governments understand that's a tool in their belt and can deploy it as an awareness to support the sector, a bit more in depth. So fingers crossed. All right. And I know that's something that you'll understand deeply what's been happening in your world.
Jeff M. Poulin
Definitely, yeah, there's so much along the same lines, actually, we really looked at Creative Generation. We looked at the year 2020, with the great pause in programming that occurred as a year to conduct a lot of research to build some of that infrastructure like we just talked about, and you know, we're seeing the fruits of that labor. Now we're publishing a lot. We're launching a lot of things we are scaling work that was piloted at the end of last year, a little more broadly, and moving that to fruition. And continuing just to adapt and pivot, because 2021, like 2020 is just full of surprises, certainly, in our work,and so it's been really fulfilling, but it definitely has been keeping us really busy. And, you know, actually personally too, I also teach outside of my day to day work,and the semester actually started, just this past week, on a little bit of a weird schedule, with classes not being held in person,and that's so rejuvenating. For me, I absolutely love teaching, I don't know that I want to be in higher education full time at this point in my career, but I definitely enjoy the process, I sort of apply my creativity in that way of scaffolding that knowledge together to grow the next, you know, generation of folks in our field. And every year, I'm just so, so inspired by the passion, particularly the passion for change, and for making our sector better,that comes from the dialogues I have in class. So just the other night, we had a really powerful conversation, and it kind of gave me that pep in my step to carry on for this week. Because otherwise, this week has been really, really crazy busy, and so that was good. And you know, and then there's life, you know, we moved in our house actually in January,and it's just been so great to settle in. It's a proper springtime now here in Maryland,and there's wonderful outdoor spaces around us, and we have a backyard, and the dog loves it,and it's just been really nice to feel settled and another type of rejuvenation really. But you know, it's crazy just in the world happening around all of my work in the US, ranging from the pandemic and the rollout of the vaccine that's been happening and really giving hope we passed some legislation here in the US that gave a tremendous amount of arts focused stimulus money for the National Endowment for the Arts, and a new grant called Shuttered Venue OperatorsGrants or SPOGs, that are really allowing Broadway to think about opening and art spaces welcoming young people again, and schools to really return to some semblance of normalcy,and that's instilled a bit ofhope. I think that really what we see kind of transcends everything like, it's also Arts Education Month, and a lot of states here where they're celebrating visual art and dance and theatre in schools,and it's so cool to see that that same hope, replicate and sort of be amplified through our very kind of niche sector and at the intersection of Arts & Culture and Education & Social Change. So it's just been really kind of nice. I feel like it's a true springtime, where I'm at today, at least. That in that same vein, though, I'm wondering, you know, as you've developed these networks, and you're talking with folks, have you seen folks really continuing to adapt in this new year of 2021, like what's happening with teaching artists around the world that we should all know about?
Madeleine McGirk
It's an interesting one, because I feel like that sort of comes in stages,and obviously, it's totally different. Each country has a different reality with the pandemic and a different response. And so, you know, colleagues in New Zealand or Australia have been, you know, out and about, interrupted from time to time with lockdowns, but compared to us and Scotland have been able to enjoy a lot more freedom, less restrictions. Whereas here in Scotland, we've been pretty much locked down for a year now, there have been parts that have started to open and it's closing again. So, obviously different parts of the world are responding slightly differently. But I have noticed something start to kind of shift I think, Just very generally speaking, obviously, in the beginning, there was like a panic that everyone had things shut down, and everyone was kind of like, stunned and didn't really know what to expect, what was going to happen. Then there was the theme of everyone, you know, zooming and figuring out how to work this way and how to work digitally, conferences, including ours, you know, moving online and being like this, right? Do we do it like this? I don't know. And then now what I'm seeing is like, everyone I can never say everyone, a lot of people have now kind of found their feet doing work online, or they've at least found ways to exist this way,and now have had that pause that you just talked about the like, what do we want to happen if things open up after we get vaccinated? What do we want it to be? Not necessarily on a huge strategic level, but I am seeing an appetite for more collective action. So, particularly coming out of the states, there is actually a lot of awareness and demand around pay scales for teaching artists and valuing that properly and equitably,and how are people used? Why are they used that way? And is that okay? And I'm seeing that kind of being universal. The other thing I'm noticing is that because a lot of the recovery funding in different countries has had to be turned inwards towards their own performance spaces, or freelancers. There's a real recognition that they can't be funding international work right now, or touring companies, or big huge scale, things like that,and that money is being re-funneled into the artists or the spaces. Not enough and not strategically enough,and obviously, there are huge problems there. So, very generally speaking, no. People seem to have an appetite now for working very locally, very in their own community, and then communicating that globally. Whereas I think before it was kind of people always wanted to be in a different country doing work over there,and now it seems, that seems to have started to shift a little,and we're certainly thinking that now with our own conferences, like, how do we really do grassroots, but keep the international? How do you really actually meaningfully shift a local perspective or a local issue, while informing best practices internationally? And that kind of ethos has been an interesting shift. So, I'm still at the beginning of understanding that, but it's an interesting one.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, I find your observations really interesting,and it actually harkens me back to some work that I did last year. So when the pandemic really took effect in the US towards the end of March, and the month of April, I started working with Denny Palmer Wolf of Wolf Brown, a really well known researcher here in the States and around the world in the Arts & Culture space,and we wanted to really respond to how Arts & Cultural Education programs, particularly those not in schools, and in community settings, were responding to the Covid-19 pandemic,and we took to observing a small cohort of programs in a couple of networks in Massachusetts, in San Diego, and then a couple of other places around the country for what we thought was going to be the month of April and May. But really, what we ended up doing was following their trajectory from April through about September through the multiple pandemics right that occurred in the US during that time, not only the Covid-19 pandemic, but the economic recession, the continuing climate crisis, and also the civil uprisings resulting from violence against our Black communities at the hands of police, and it was really fascinating to see them respond,nd through that process, we asked some folks to visualize their response and came up with this model, much like you're talking about that move from this idea of a desire to turn back to normal to then moving actually outside of normal to gain new insights and learn and then continue from there to implement those long term strategic shifts that could actually benefit the future of the work and to gain that futures orientation and things,and we actually just published some of that. It was released a few weeks ago in a journal called Arts Education Policy Review, which for those who are listening, we'll drop that link in the chat, and it's free to download through April 19, I think, and there's, you know, a really, I think, big opportunity for us to harness the power of this pause, or the pause that maybe occurred in the past, or maybe it's occurring now and work to envision the future, simply because it's a once in a generation circumstance that we're living through right now, and we have the time and the space and the scenario really to interrogate those ideas, like how are you, how are teaching artists supporting it? And what is the work that they're doing? And is that really what we want? Or is it just what we've always done?
Madeleine McGirk
Right? Well, that's a really interesting one, too, because no, it's like the fruit. So you and I both attend international conferences pretty frequently, and we have met there and things, and so it's like, you and I know better than most the kinds of voices that are represented there. Even really diverse gatherings are still not nearly representative of the countries that are there,and so it's like, having to stay local, you’re like, which voices are here that we just haven't been listening to? What work is going on that is not at those international conferences, but has a million other ways of knowing or embodied practice for things that we just weren't valuing properly, and so then you go, knowing that, you know, mega institutions with the money to send folk to the conferences, aren't the only ones that should be having a microphone and showcasing to the world best practice, and then are we even really seeing best practice? Are we just seeing wealthy practice? And then it goes into those kind of questions nd that's, I mean, you know, Creative Generation does this too,ut it's, it is a sort of line of thinking that makes you go, yeah, what we were doing before, and that the system that you and I are arriving in is really, it needs unpicked, then you've thought about, and this staying local and thinking globally, is kind of an interesting shift towards starting that thought.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, absolutely, we talked about that, and I appreciate you saying that about Creative Generation, that we always talk about identifying and amplifying, and documenting, really transformative local practice that deals with complex global challenges, right, that we're, how are we reckoning with these global crises on a hyperlocal level, because that's really where it works, no matter what anyone says to you, large convenings that produce a piece of paper, truly only have so much impact, but hands-on effort in a local community have huge impact. And I think that's something for us to reconcile, but the point about who's being heard is something that really speaks to the underpinning, rationale for this podcast, and so I want to go there a little bit, because you had a really wonderful conversation with a teaching artist or socially engaged participatory artists, as she calls herself. So tell us a little bit about Fié Neo.
Madeleine McGirk
Yeah, she's amazing. She will, you'll hear in a moment the hows and whys of how she came to be, where she is now with her art and her practice, but as a sort of very, very broad strokes overview, she has this huge bundle of energy, and she is just, she always has about three or four different ideas, all of which take like an hour to digest fully because she is just so, she's very well traveled. She's very well, like she's trained in all these different forms. She went from a really prestigious fashion design school in the UK, to being a sustainable farmer for a little while, to now she's doing a business course to help understand economics better so that she can think more about sustainability of teaching artistry and socially engaged practice. She wanted to do the podcast and I did an episode with her a month ago or something,and I just love speaking to her because you always come away with new thoughts, and new ways of going, hmm, that just blew my mind, a lot of it,and so I'm really excited to bring her to this podcast because I think she's exactly the kind of young changemaker that we want to be amplifying.
Jeff M. Poulin
Definitely, and before we jump in, just a quick note to our listeners, there is one moment of adult language in this interview. Of course, we at Creative Generation never wish to censor anyone, especially our artists and creatives, educators, or young people, but we did just want to let listeners know ahead of time. All right, let's get to the interview just after a quick ad. Creative Generation is proud to support the ABLE Assembly, Arts Better the Lives of Everyone conference hosted by the Berklee Institute for Arts, Education and Special Needs. Taking place online on April 10, and 11th, 2021. The theme of the 2021 ABLE Assembly is intersectionality, disability and arts education. To learn more and register, please visit www.berkeley.edu/abl. That's b e r k l e e . e d u / A B L E. See you there.
Madeleine McGirk
Hi, Fié welcome and thank you so much for being here to talk to me for the Why Change podcast. To give a little background to anyone listening, you and I were first introduced by a European contact we both know who works in the participatory arts or teaching artistry, because we were both young people working in the field of Arts for social transformation, and then you came to our ITAC Five conference last year where we found time to chat properly and we just connected. And since then, we've been figuring out ways to work together on showcasing the value and the impact of socially engaged art, and I know that's something you've been working on for a while long before that, too. So, can you just start off by telling listeners a bit about that work and what it is that you do?
Fié Neo
So, I do quite a lot of different things. My practice is interdisciplinary, so I've got a background in performance and wearable art. So, I started out really wanting to make wearable art, and I thought, you know, if I make art pieces that's wearable that people can wear out to public spaces, and these art talks about social and political issues, then I can really change the world. But then, you know, after about a year in fashion, I realized that wasn't the case. So I ended up in socially engaged practice, because my works have always been social and political. And at some point, realizing that theatre spaces or even exhibition spaces weren't providing me with the right kind of spaces to engage in such conversations, my practice sort of like, evolved into socially engaged practice where I was doing participatory interventions, with wearable art pieces that look kind of crazy. But it was that attraction point for people to come into my conversations, and talk about things that matter, you know, about the housing crisis, or several different topics And then my work sort of evolved, and not, not sort of led through by the practice, but rather, whatever that the theme, or the art, or the community's needs, that whichever practice fits, will come along to be that, that tool for that sort of conversation, or that sort of space for the message to be conveyed. And then I started the International Network for Socially Engaged Practitioners (INSEP) when I was still in London, so, that was in 2017.So, a bit of background, I was doing poetry interventions, and then I realized, through any intervention that I was doing that I couldn't care for people's mental health, and sometimes my works open up that space of vulnerability, and I didn't know how to navigate that. And around me, there weren't people who were practitioners in this field, and they didn't understand, you know, the process that I was going through, and that was when I met last, who is doing your European Academy of Participation (EAP), that was the contact that we had in common, and, you know, the like, two years that I was involved with EAP, we were talking about all these different things that I was, I was so excited someone was talking about, and it really brought together such an amazing pool of people who are in socially engaged practice, to share about the vulnerabilities of ethics, working with people, and also financial sustainability. ack then I also realized pretty early on, it's really difficult to continue socially engaged works, because we are very much dependent on grants to do it, and when we're dependent on grants, we're always, you know, just competing with other social organizations. As artists, we're not necessarily trained to be, you know, grant writers, and suddenly, all of that just falls on you as an individual artists to do everything, you know, be the fundraiser, the artist, be the largest stakes administration person, the financial person, and it was just a lot. So, that sort of set a large part of the work apart from bringing people together and sharing those resources and conversations was also to research financial independence and sustainability for socially engaged projects.
Madeleine McGirk
Amazing. So, I feel like your work has about 12 different strands at any one time, which is why I'm so intrigued by it. And obviously, you yourself are a socially engaged artist, and you talked about starting with wearable art, understanding funding and doing applications and working in London and European levels. So, I suppose I would be really curious to hear sort of chronological step by step of like, where did you go? How did you end up back in Singapore from all these amazing places that you started?
Fié Neo
Yeah, so I was studying in London. So, I was there for four years, and I was already doing work in sort of theatre and sort of intervention spaces, which, you know, because I was doing public interventions, a lot of times I get chased by security- and that landed me with a lot of different festivals that I was doing my work in. And then, through the European Academy of participation, I was exposed to European projects, which allowed me to open up that space to understand how, I guess, that part of the social sector in Europe works. When I started on set, I was just connecting with a lot of people around and also the network, there was an Eastern Partnership (EaP) and allowance was suggesting to me that, you know, you really need to understand how the sort of social sector in Europe and how European projects function if you want to set up your own entity or organization. Originally, I thought, you know, I could set up a services organization into European projects, but I really needed to understand how that function. o, through connections, one person connected me to another and then I ended up in France. I just went with a suitcase without much of a plan, and there was this director of a Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) that was doing sort of like an international Euro-Asia exchange, and somehow there was a fit between what I was trying to do with the network and what they were doing there. So, I thought, you know, maybe this is a good way to figure out how artists can maybe collaborate or work with NGOs, because NGOs are skilled in writing those grant applications, and perhaps there is some way to, you know, apply for funding together and allow artists to find different financial avenues to support and continue their work. So, with a stroke of luck, I managed to get an opportunity to work in the organization for a year, and I got a visa to do so. hen throughout the year, I really learned a lot. So, it was very interesting, because I was so much in the art space, and I was making, I don't know, costumes for like Disney projects, or all sorts of other stuff- and my university gave me so many different opportunities. Suddenly, I was in France, everyone really spoke French, mostly, and then, you know, I was just completely not in my art space. I was just in the social sector, nobody really knew me as an artist, not necessarily because, you know, I was a different personality, different identity-nd I really traveled a lot in that year, and I really learned how, how Europe works in the social sector, but also how I guess the different cultural exchanges, the different contexts or different history of different European countries, which are so different and diverse. I thought I knew everything when I was in London, but no, it was different. Then that also allowed me to really understand on a deeper level, how European funding works, and what different sort of opportunities were available there. And the thing is, if I were European, I could have really pretty easily set up you know, a proper entity or a sort of organization and continue work from there, but because I'm not, I couldn't assess a lot of these opportunities. So, that put me in a situation where I was building up this network, and I was getting involved with a lot of different conversations, but I couldn't necessarily bring it further as an individual. And then, at the end of my year in France, I was feeling quite exhausted. I really wanted to re-enter the art space part,and I was thinking, so this sort of NGO structures actually also works on the same financial model of applying for grants- and I just found that really precarious, because if there were any sort of cut in any sort of funding, you know, a lot of NGOs wouldn't survive in Europe, because it's almost 100% of their income comes from there. Then we have Brexit and all these uncertainties in the region, everything was a big question mark, as well. So, I was really thinking, okay, if I want to be, if I want this practice to be financially independent, then I have to find a way that is going to have some sort of business model. So, that was when I started to look into social enterprises and social innovation models. Back then I was already sort of researching into post-capitalism, gift economy, and universal basic income, you know, all these really interesting and cool concepts- and then, you know, with the sort of deeper understanding of climate crisis, while working with activist groups and sort of nonprofit sector in in France, that was really good going into this topic, I realized that, you know, we have finite resources on Earth. Yet, we are asking for an infinite economic growth. So, if we want to continue growing, what is it that can provide jobs for people that isn't going to export natural resources? And here we go, we have got socially engaged practitioners, who are, you know, skilled in community care, which is really what people need in terms of relationships in terms of Liscensed Behavioral Analysis (LBA), in terms of what we need in some in this sort of social glue in society? Why is it that we're not properly compensated for and paid for our services? And, you know, this is always this sort of conversation where if you are working on a grassroots level, if you are building communities, then is that something you should just do voluntarily? But then how are people supposed to survive? How are they supposed to pay their rent? How are they supposed to even, you know, think about starting a family? You can't afford it while volunteering your way, you know, through that- and it doesn't make sense that something that brings about so much social impact isn't properly compensated for when the value is so much more than, you know, manipulating numbers in the financial industry. So, that was when I started to look into social enterprises, and I got in touch with a couple of different social change agencies.Back then I had already left France, so, I was really intrigued by, sort of, the North American ways of doing things. I saw that there were a lot of really interesting social change agencies who somehow managed to make it work because I think America works on a very different structure as compared to Europe. They don't have that much public funding. So, they are dependent on, sort of, either private funding or they find some ways of being sustainable themselves. I went and then COVID hit, so that really,sort of, disrupted my plans- but in a way it also allowed me to really be rooted there for six months. You know, that was as long as my tourist visa allowed me to stay to understand how things work. So I ended up on different organic farms, and I was learning about permaculture and I was learning about regenerative restorative agriculture. I was learning about climate and the impact of agriculture on it, and then at the same time, because, you know, the whole world sort of like went into lockdown, I was- everyone was also online, and I could connect with so many more organizations that otherwise I wouldn't have been able to, because I would have had to do it, you know, physically. Then I started my podcast, called Audience Talk when I was there because, you know, I was having all these conversations, and I'm like- okay, these conversations have to go somewhere. Everyone is in a phase where, you know, suddenly, it frees up more time to actually listen to things. So, I thought, okay, now is a good time for me to do that. Then along with that, my podcast allowed me that sort of platform to reach more people whom, otherwise I would have had, I guess, less of a reason to connect with them. Because then the conversation isn't just a competition, it's something that you know, also helps, publicize or share what the other person's work is about. So, that was a really interesting thing for me, I think.Oh, and then now to link it back to Singapore- so, that's been quite a long journey. Then my visa ran out and I had to return. Then coming back to Singapore, I mean, the reality here is really different, the local context- and it also, like almost mandated me to think differently and do things differently. Also, just because culturally, it's so different from what I'm used to. So, maybe like, you know, now it's the good time to share about the business cost that I'm kind of in. So, I got to a point of realization, where social innovation and social enterprise- it's great, but it's still a sort of a business model, but with a social impact agenda-and, you know, my research in financial sustainability and independence into socially engaged project space, also made me realize that wewill not be able to get to spaces where there is funding, or we will not be able to get to that place of financial sustainability until we offer services to where the money is at. That really pushed me to look at businesses, because businesses are the places where the money is at- they can afford services that can pay for things. I mean, not just businesses, the structures, but also the people who are working in businesses- because that is also another avenue that can be tapped out financially. I think one of the issues with funding based socially engaged projects is that thesort of focus, is always on disadvantaged groups. I mean, I can understand the social agenda behind that, but that also means that we are further segregating these communities. We’re saying that, you know, if you are disabled, then you're only going to be with disabled because, you know, the fund only covers this; or if you're a senior, then that's just, you know, senior funded sort of activities. What we really need in society is really more interactions, which have cohesion, and that sort of glue that can allow people to have that space to understand different perspectives, and to learn differences. Just to understand, you know, what are people's stories? How have they lived? How is it different from my economic or social structure or my environment? That is when we can actually solve issues in society. I felt like there wasn’t that and a lot of funding. It's very, very restrictive in that sense. So, sorry, I forgot where I was at.
Madeleine McGirk
That's okay, this might be a good time, because I feel like I'm still absorbing all of what you just said, I know, I knew a lot of it but I think you're the only person I know who has like, a fashion degree, and has worked on a farm and come up with socially engaged practice and formed organizations and podcasts and like, I just, I am so amazed by your actual step by step journey. Before we go on, I just have to ask- who did you make costumes for with Disney?
Fié Neo
So, actually, it was Beauty and the Beast, you know, the film with Emma Watson. So, they were doing a project where for as part of the publicity, they were gonna have an alternative red carpet event, and they commissioned a group of us to make costumes for that. So, that was, I mean, it's on YouTube. If you search like Central Saint Martin's, Disney Beauty and the Beast it comes up and mines like this red costume thing with lights that come through. Yeah, it was a fun project that was really stressful.
Madeleine McGirk
So, I know that is like 1/10th, 1/100th of the things you just talked about, but you and I have never discussed this before- I did my dissertation on gender issues and Disney. So, anytime I hear an involvement, I'm like, tell me more. So you've gone from doing all of that art, and all of that creating to your socially engaged practice- and now you're doing a business course to help become more fluent in how to talk to businesses and bring them into the socially engaged space. So, I'm curious to hear, if you had to pick just one project that you are particularly proud of, or one piece of work that you've done, where you feel like, that was really just doing exactly the thing that I do well, and that I'm proud of, what project would you describe in that you've worked on and why that project?
Fié Neo
Actually, when I was in France, I worked with a man who was homeless. So, back then there was a European project that we were doing to develop local tours, to offer, sort of like, alternative perspectives and highlight, I guess, stories that, you know, people otherwise wouldn't know of. It was about multicultural exchange and stuff. So, I was like, okay, this is a great project. I don't know if you know Massy, it's the second largest city in France, but it's also got really high unemployment rates. I was like, okay, ]what if we reach people who actually need that sort of income and develop the tour with them. So, I went to our employment centers, I went on the streets, I just talked to people who are on the streets- and everyone just kind of gave me the cold shoulder also, because you know, I'm not fringe and I don't speak fluent French. So, I think they looked at me funny, and then there was this man, he's a really lovely man. He was like, most often seated outside of our office, and he was homeless, and then I just went up to him, and I talked to him, and he was super enthusiastic. So, we ended up, you know, deciding, okay, let's do this, you know, let's hear your story. Then let's develop a tour, then you can give it to tourists or local people, and then that can give you some income. So, we developed it. Then while I was hearing his story, it's amazing because he's a veteran- he served in the French military as a legionnaire. So, he was like, you know, the toughest of the military, and he joined the military because he believed that was the way that he could be of service to his country and he could be of service to society. So, he was posted in, I think, Cambodia, Vietnam for a period of time, and that was sort of after the Vietnam War. So, that area was kind of still having a lot of unrest. The French military sort of intervened, and he had all these incredible stories to share. Then he was telling me that, you know, he had a health problem, so he couldn't finish his military service and he came back to France, he switched careers, he was a firefighter. Then he couldn't continue that either, because he had a heart attack. So, he had issues with his health, and because he didn't finish his military service, he had to wait till he was 62 to be able to receive his pension. Back then, when I met him, he was 60. So, he was out on the streets, because, you know, he couldn't work. He was sending in applications for emergency funding, and the office just kept saying that they didn't receive it. So, eventually, he ended up homeless, and it wasn't really by choice, and because there's so much stigma against homeless people, it's just a really sad situation. Then as he was sharing, I asked if I could film it and share it as some sort of a little teaser for publicity for the tour. So, that was what I did. So, I made these little videos, almost like a series of his stories. Then fromthat, I did a lot of publicity on YouTube and Facebook and with, like, different networks. This is the amazing thing, while we developed a tour and I was using Facebook as a channel to communicate this tour, Before the tour even started, people already knew him through the videos that I was making of him. And then you know, sometimes I would come by, you know, drop by when I was going up the office, you would check in a little bit and then he would tell me that, oh, you know, Fié,someone bought me ice cream today. You know, they saw my little video on Facebook and they were taking photos of me and they chatted with me for like three hours. It was so nice. And you know, I hear little stories like this along the way and nobody knew who he was in the office, even though he was there every day. Then because I was putting up posters about the tour, people started to talk to him from the office. Then when we started to do that for the first time we had a couple of people with us and then you know, people gave some money, and he was in tears like, he got teary eyed and he just was like, you know, you don't have to give me money- and they were like, no, you did a good job, you know, you deserve it. Then afterwards, he told me, you know, after a lot of reflections and silence, he said, see, it's nicer totalk to people in the eye, and not just be sat down, looking at people pass by, because, you know, it really hit me that he has become invisible in society to a degree. And what I was doing with that project, it wasn't just about the project, it was about how I could connect him with a larger community- and that would stay regardless of whether I'm present or not. It's those bonds and relationships and connections with society and being seen as a person that gives him dignity. For me, that was, you know, the days where I really felt like I was creating an impact somewhere. I feel like socially engaged practice- it's not just about the art, it's about how we can connect people to build a larger community or support networks such that, you know, we are supported in societies as individuals.
Madeleine McGirk
That's amazing. I think that's such a strong example of the kind of work that you do as well, because one thing I've really admired while we've chatted, and I've heard about your project, is how responsive you are. It's not like you come up with an application, and then you go and find people who might help you do the thing- it's like you hear about an issue, and instantly, you're like, there's something here, how can we change this? And how can we do something about it? That's really amazing to me, I wish everyone approached work like that. But, I can see how that would lead you into thinking about sustainability and where to get funding and to sustain ourselves as artists. So, looking ahead to the future, then what do you think is the most crucial thing for young change makers to be focusing on? So, if you were to make a guess at where we should all focus energy around? What's going to come next and how to be ready for it? What do you think that would look like? What would be your best guess?
Fié Neo
You know, I feel like this is not an issue just solely for young changemakers because young changemakers are also bounded by what is it that they can practically and feasibly do if people cannot get an income to be able to survive, you know, minimally. Just to be able to survive, to pay your rent, to pay your bills- how do we expect young people to be change makers of the future? We are not creating that ecosystem or the environment to support that. This is something I feel very strongly about. Because, I mean, with my own experiences as well, it's really difficult. You know, when you graduate, you have maybe a short time period of a couple of years to figure out what you want to do. Then at some point, you have to succumb to a system of like, nine to five, nine to six, where you are doing a job that you know you don't believe is meaningful, that is just profiting some sort of exploitation elsewhere. A lot of people don't want to do that, especially young people who are conscious and aware of these issues. But, the fact is that where are the other jobs that's available?And before we even talk about where the other jobs are available? Are we ready as a society to pay for that or to find that, because if we are not, then we are never going to transition out of this system that is going to continue destroying the planet. I feel like, you know, this is something that we have to collectively work together on as a whole ecosystem. It's not just about one sector. Because, you know, if we look at things from each sectors’ perspective, then the social sector is just going to look within the social sector, we are always just going to have conversations with those funders, that's it- but then if we look at businesses and the capacity in there to tap on businesses strength and power and/or financial capabilities to try and do more, or to try and change mindsets there- then that's where things can really change. And I mean, I've been involved in a lot of conversations, you know, when I was back in France, before I left, I really felt like, you know, pardon my language, but the world's fucked and that we just were just running out of time. And I was prepared to just join an eco-village and then you know, forget about like, visas and all that. I was prepared to just wing it and sacrifice not being able to return to Singapore, or leave the country just so that you know, I'm in an eco-village somewhere and I'm properly planting trees or something, doing something good for the planet. There were a lot of conversations around this. So, I've heard of people who have been trying to create change for decades and nothing went through. They've been to all these different sources that governments or businesses, and the system doesn't change, because I guess people don't change. And, you know, in the end, they're telling me that the only way that you can be out of this is that you create your alternative. But, the fact is that that alternative is not accessible for everyone. If we look at people who are in cities, people have family- it's not that people don't want to do something to change, it’s that when you have your responsibilities, when your responsibility is to your immediate family members that you have to be responsible for to take care of, then, you know, as much as you want to be in an eco-village, not everyone can afford to do so. I guess I also got to the point of that sort of conversation and thought process where I'm not ready to give up the rest of the world, you know what I mean? Like, there's gonna be so much suffering, and I'm not doing what I'm doing because I want to change the world, because I want to be that person, you know, I'm doing it because I'm seeing a lot of suffering,and I'm seeing a lot of people in pain. I'm seeing how we have created societies in which our tolerance level, it's so filled already with so much, whatever it is that this society has created, that we can be indifferent. That we can shut our eyes to people who are in less privileged positions and situations. And I just don't want to live in a world that continues to perpetuate that, and what is it that we can do to change things? So, in the end, it's also what kind of support we can give in engaging with different generations, not just young people, because yeah, they're fine. The houses are on fire, because like, that's their future, their immediate future that they will experience, and it doesn't mean that if you're seven years old, we are comfortable, or in, like, your 50s or 60s, and you're comfortable, you don't want to jeopardize your position in your business or in your work that you don't want to do something more. It's not about that, you know, it's about what is the legacy that you are going to leave behind? What is it that you are going to change in this world such that it's a better world for younger people to inherit? You know what, it's our collective individual responsibility and social responsibility to do so. And it's not about how uncomfortable it is, it's that it is our responsibility to take ownership of.
Madeleine McGirk
So, then let me ask, let me follow that up with the question then, because if I think we're in agreement, you and I, that there needs to be an equal change shift, and there needs to be a different approach. If the world is going to be sustainable, and if jobs and arts, and you know, human mental health is going to be sustainable,what then would you say is the first step? So, I take the point, it's not a generational silo that needs to make it happen, but if we were to harness the collective energy of the world, what would be the first step you would want us to take strategically to make that happen?
Fié Neo
I feel like, I guess in part, this is something that I'm trying to do through INSEP, International Network for Socially Engaged Practitioners, which is to bring together cross-sector conversations. Part of that I'm trying to bring in socially engaged artists who understand the importance of this process, to facilitate an experience such that people will fundamentally connect with themselves and with other people. I think it has to be, it has to come from connection with our emotions and feelings. Because if we're out of touch with that, if we empty ourselves of that, then thatenergy, that transformational energy, it's not going to click because a lot of change, it comes from feelings, it comes from emotions. When we talk about changing the system, fundamentally, we're talking about changing people, but we cannot change another person, but we can inspire that change. The person has to take it upon himself or herself to do so. And that spark is going to come from his or her experiences, or his or her feelings. So, I feel like there is a role in there that socially engaged practitioners can play that taps on these emotions and connections, like genuine, authentic connection to, you know, bring forward, pay forward. A process of change, and collaborationthat can be the thing that will lead us towards a more progressive future.
Madeleine McGirk
Right. Yeah, I think there's a huge amount to be said for inspiring other people to make the change in the way that they see it to be needed. And yeah, I always come away from listening to your talk, like ready to just take up arms and start a revolution. So, , I love to hear your thoughts. I think it's time to move on to the final section where I asked you some quickfire questions to help people get to know you and your thought process and the ideas underpinning your work. So, I'm going to ask you quickfire questions. And then you just respond in either one word or one sentence, like short, quickfire answers. Okay, are you ready? Yeah. Okay. So, who inspires you?
Fié Neo
Andrea Zimmerman.
Madeleine McGirk
Okay, what keeps you motivated?
Fié Neo
I don't want to live in a world that doesn't care about other people.
Madeleine McGirk
And where are you most grounded?
Fié Neo
Listening to people
Madeleine McGirk
How do you stay focused?Balanced? And finally, why change?
Fié Neo
Because we can afford to live in a better world.
Madeleine McGirk
Thank you,so lovely talking to you. Thank you.
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Jeff M. Poulin
What a great interview Madeline. Wow, I mean, Fié talks so fast and has so many big ideas. I love it. It really resonates with me. I think, you know, her perspective right there at the end about working with other people to help them bring to reality the change that they wish to see. I mean, that's why we do our work.
Madeleine McGirk
Totally, totally. She's one of these people. When I first met her, I was like, wow, I can't wait to see what you do next, because you know, she's currently our age, she's young. So you're like, in 20 years, 30 years, what will you have made happen? I just can't wait to watch- because already, she's accumulated so much niche strings of knowledge and understanding. And I'm like, I can't wait to see how it all comes together and the change that results.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, and one of those nice streams of knowledge to use that term that I really appreciated was this perspective about both the role of artists as social change makers and the needs for their future development and their skills that bring those ideas to reality. Like you said, that the business acumen or the other types of understandings of economic principles that are so often not included in those structures that we have now, which do cultivate the creativity of artists and the next generation.
Madeleine McGirk
Right, and she really embodies that. And I think the other thing that's interesting is that when she spoke to me for her podcast, which is called Onions Talk, and everyone should go and listen to, but she didn't have an understanding of what a teaching artist was when we first met. And she was like, I thought it was to do with schools- and I thought it was to do with working with, you know, young people in institutions. Then I was like, no, you know, it's what we call participatory artists. And Scotland states call it teaching artistry. In Europe or mainland Europe, France, where she spent a lot of time, it's socially engaged art, or community art- and so, she's very intentional about socially engaged practice. And that being her focus, because also in Singapore, there's a large volume of social enterprises. So, things need to be seen to be in line with innovation, to be seen as important and worth funding. She tells me, this is all second hand knowledge- and so, she has this really unique take on that and coming up as a young creative, she had never identified with the term teaching artist. She came to ITAC five and clearly, like, found her people, and were in touch- but it's interesting that the pockets of people that exist and how they identify and what they call themselves. What everyone's discovering sort of independently is what we talk about all the time, which is the transformative power of arts. And it's, yeah, she's a really good example of how that can happen in different contexts that aren't participatory, or teaching artists, or they're sort of conventional theorems.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, and that language though, is really important. I find it really interesting, right? Because I did actually come from, sort of the business side of things. And my story is one probably not unlike a lot of folks that end up doing the work that we do, which was that I grew up in a very arts rich environment. I had the very distinct privilege of having dance and music and theater and visual art in school and in my community, and reached some pretty early success. Which taught me a couple of things- one of which was that I did not want to be a professional dancer my whole life, and so I ended up actually studying arts management from the undergraduate level, which is pretty uncommon. Usually people move into that after studying their art form, in a graduate degree, or something like that. And, you know, it's fascinating because I came to understand those concepts of nonprofits and charities and social enterprises, very early on. I mean, to the point that, you know, Creative Generation actually is a registered public benefit corporation or a B Corp, which is an American model that's been growing in the last several years or so that sort of mashes nonprofit with, you know, social enterprise and things of that nature. So, that's been an interesting model- but when we were actually forming, moving from a research initiative to an actual organization to be able to do the type of work that we did, I had a colleague of mine, Dalouge Smith- big shout out to Dalouge, he'll actually be on the podcast in a couple of weeks- he talked to me and he said something to the effect of, wel,l your work is not defined by your organizational structure, your organizational structure is a tool in your tool belt to help you achieve your work- and that blip of mentality just, it released a huge burden on my shoulders to say, okay it's not actually about how we file our taxes or it's not actually about how we interface with government, but it's actually about this concept that the arts are transformative. And we should use it as catalysts for the field, we should really use all of the different tools in our tool belt whether that is the knowledge that is gained from being a sustainable agriculturalists, or in business school, all of those things lend credibility and perspective and skill to actually applying our harnessed creativity for the community good, really.
Madeleine McGirk
Totally, it's just which lens you describe it through, that's what i've come to see because I, like you, instead of constituting ITAC, i set us up as an organization, we are a charity here in Scotland because that was the closest thing to what we're trying to do. We are not turning a profit, we're just helping folks and doing things we deem to be useful based on what we're told is useful, but it was really interesting because when I was first setting it up, you go through the process of getting constituted and doing all the admin and I remember it's like, you have to have charitable purposes and you can choose from a list of like, however many and one is to advance the arts and one is to advance education. And I was like, cool, these are ours, sending them the application, sent it back and this women came back and she said, how do teaching artists advance the arts and how do they advance education? And I was like, yeah, I don't even know where to begin. Like saying I was walking away like it was okay, I can explain it. So, then you start to go, well, clearly there was a need for us to do this because there's a lot of work needing to be done about increasing understanding and awareness of the practice, that it was like, the different steps you have to go through and the different vocabulary you need to use to just get the space to do the work that you want to do that then it all becomes clear that the sort of phases between starting and getting there are are a bit of a roller coaster. So, yeah, constant getting set up but it's something we talk about all the time, I know she is now looking at the possibility of being a social enterprise because, like I said, in Singapore, she tells me, you're incentivized to always be innovating and to be doing that kind of thing rather than charity. Which, in the UK is incentivized, but not so much over there. So, it was justan interesting discussion. All right, if we want to do the same thing, we have to call it five different names to qualify it for whatever it is you're trying to get in that context.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, and that's an ongoing thing Ithink our sector will certainly always be grappling with as as times change and language changes, but what Iappreciate most about what you shared and the journey that we did with Creative Generation and what Fié was talking about with with her work, is this concept that how you talk about your work really matters and this ties back to some of our underpinning research which cites, you know, educational psychology that is really understood to say that how educators describe the work that they do subconsciously impacts the way they actually do their work. So, if we are saying that the purpose of socially engaged arts is to bring our communities together and help deal with large global challenges on a hyper local scale, like we were talking about earlier, then that actually will impact how we do the work and are in our own heads, but if we just appeal to the language of those gatekeepers of funding and policy and we justify everything by, you know, lowering school dropout rates and increasing college attendance, then subconsciously we're going to work towards those ends. So I think having a real stake in the ground and a real commitment to the language that we used to describe why we do the work that we do as as teaching artists or cultural practitioners or however you identify, I think is a real strong call to action for our fields. It really comes with this notion that, you know, as we advocate for our work, knowing what it is that we do, and how we do it, and why we do it is really that important for STEM.
Madeleine McGirk
Yeah, we always have this with the teaching artists, because we are always very like, I think it's on our homepage of our website, where it's like, this is the term we chose, because we had to pick a term. But, what we mean by the practice are these goals, or is this end result. The aim you have while you do your work is what makes you probably part of this field, rather than this art form, or this methodology or this type of, you know, underpinning research. And so, it's much, much broader than that. And I think with that, you can be much more inclusive, and much less siloed with these conferences only for people who subscribe to this way of working, and it just, you know, you want to go far, go together and all that jazz. So, I think it makes a lot of sense.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, I'm right there with you. So, Madeleine, as we look towards the future, what do you have coming up? What should our listeners be paying attention to in the next couple of weeks or months?
Madeleine McGirk
A lot. Like, I think a lot of the wider arts community last year was like, stop, take stock and plan. And this year is like, launch everything and go for it. So, if you aren't on ITAC’s mailing list, that's a shameless plug. But I really think I would strongly recommend that folks subscribe to that, if they're interested in this kind of work. In this last month alone, I think we have, by the time this comes out, we'll have launched seven or eight new projects, most of which have paid positions attached open calls, advisory panels, there are voluntary roles and state pended roles if you don't have a whole bunch of time to commit, but you want to be engaged. And there are paid positions, if it's something that you want to pursue on our bigger timescale. So, there are loads of ways and Fié is one of those ones that we connect within our mailing list and our work. So, I mean, you've heard the energy and the innovation and the ideas that come from her. So, just imagine when there's 2000 of us in a room. It's amazing, and it's so much stronger when it's big and diverse and representative. So, I would just say, sign up, keep an eye out because there's a lot coming in the pipeline and a lot that we can be doing to move forward together.
Jeff M. Poulin
Definitely. In that same vein of moving forward together and shameless plugs, I'll just mention that Madeleine, you and I have both been involved with the Young and Emerging Leaders Forum or the YELF, which is an initiative that was born out of a convening that was held by the Worls Alliance for Arts Education, and since moving online, this group of younger practitioners in the field of Arts & Cultural Education has decided to get together once a month. We'll go ahead and drop that link in the show notes as well, but if you identify as a young, an emerging leader in the field, 35 or under, within the first few years of your career, we invite you to join these conversations that we have once a month are really great and super unplanned and very organic, and it's a wonderful way to connect with folks. Oh yeah, it's a good time. Well, that brings us to the end of our time here today on this episode of the Why Change podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Madeleine, it was good to see you as always.
Madeleine McGirk
Thank you.
Jeff M. Poulin
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Why Change the podcast for Creative Generation. If you would like to support this podcast aimed at amplifying the voices of creative changemakers around the world, please consider donating through the link located in the episode's show notes. These show notes contain all sources discussed in the episode. Be sure to follow, like, subscribe and share the Why Change podcast to make sure you and your networks get episodes delivered directly to you and that you don't miss any stories of creative work happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, we'd love to hear from you. You can write to us at Creativegeneration.org we'd love to hear your ideas about the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. Our show was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Our music is by Distant Cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co-hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.
Episode Summary
By Valerie HD Killebrew
During this episode of Why Change? Co-hosts Jeff and Madeleine discuss the changes to their work throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, and the interdisciplinary leadership of teaching artists and cultural practitioners over the last year. Madeleine interviews Fié Neo, an interdisciplinary artist based in Singapore, who has worked as a fashion designer, participatory artist, and has applied her knowledge learned through sustainable agriculture and business to advance the field of socially engaged art. Throughout their conversation, Fié shares about her socially engaged works through participatory public interventions, wearable art and film.
Founding the International Network for Socially Engaged Practitioners (INSEP), Fié details her goal of bolstering cross-sector conversations with socially engaged artists who understand the importance of this process, to facilitate an experience such that people will fundamentally connect with themselves and with other people. Fié shares her perspective on both the role of artists, as social change makers, the needs for their future development and their skills that bring innovative new ideas to reality.
Madeleine and Jeff reflect how business acumen or other types of understanding of economic principles are so often prioritized by teaching artists, although it serves a great value. Both reflect on the great importance of being strategic in translating ones impact to various audiences, specifically funders, citing educational psychology research of how educators describe the work that they do subconsciously impacts the way they actually do their work.
In this episode you’ll hear examples of socially engaged artistic practice; about how systems that support arts, education, and social change can continue to adapt; and new opportunities to virtually engage with others and stay connected to artistic communities of practice.