In this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Jeff and Madeleine check in about recent adventures and share Madeleine’s interview with Pawel Pokutycki. Pawel works at the intersection of the arts, technology, and community dialogues about the future. They all discuss new possibilities for the future, and new projects that are leading the way.
In this episode you’ll learn:
How transcending spaces, places, and communities can foster new perspectives on our work;
The intersection of technologies to reimagine possible futures; and
The potential for youth and artists creating solutions to current social challenges.
About Pawel Pokutycki
Pawel Pokutycki (PL/NL) is an interaction designer, researcher and lecturer at the Royal Academy of Art (KABK) in The Hague and Design Academy Eindhoven, The Netherlands. In 2005 he initiated early activities of the RFID Lab, later called the AR+RFID Lab, an experimental interdisciplinary platform for research in the application of Augmented Reality (AR) and Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technologies in the field of art and design. His recent projects focus on exploring relationships between new media theory, political, social and cultural studies by concept development and prototyping for interactive media.
This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode, episode transcripts, and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s web page and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC.
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
This is why I changed the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Madeleine McGirk 00:08
Oh, Hola. Hola, soy Carla. It's Rachel here. What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf. And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:14
Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Welcome to this episode of The Why change podcast Jeff here with Madeline Hey, Madeline.
Madeleine McGirk 00:44
Hello. It's so nice to be back with you again. Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:47
It's great to be on the mic. Again. I think the last time we were actually together in Madeira. And then again on the mic, obviously debriefing that but I understand you have been on some holidays and some travel.
Madeleine McGirk 01:03
Yes, called Madeira seems ages ago now. And that was like only a month ago, I think. Yes. So I came home from there. And I went straight off on annual leave and spent two weeks in Switzerland. And it was the best thing we went skiing, copious amounts of cheese and wine. And just, it's so nice. I feel like it's still healthy over there. Having sun and being outdoors is just like not something we get to do in Scotland. Any attempt at being outdoorsy I love. And then I came back and I was here for a week and then down to Oxford for the school forum. So that was really exciting as well, a whole different vibe. It was the social innovation, social entrepreneur kind of sector gathering. And, yeah, just a whole different perspective on how to make social change happen. decidedly less arty in the thinking, but kind of equally creative with a whole different vocabulary. So that was a nice learning curve. And reminder that there are a ton of ways to approach this. So not to panic if you're not quite nailing the one you were aiming for.
Jeff M. Poulin 02:11
That's so great. And I think that that pairing, I just too had a similar experience of like, really deep thinking immediately after a vacation. You know, like that there's, there's probably some brain science out there that can talk about the benefits of time away. And then deep diving, I found that even just, you know, one day of fully turning my brain off from work, my brain naturally goes back to some of this stuff and like that's when I solve the the sticky problem that I've been trying to, you know, to work out or you know, the path becomes clearer and something else that was previously murky and so I'm I'm jealous I mine was not bopping around the world for weeks at a time but I did spend a couple of days in New York City and saw some new Broadway shows which was equally as good and you know really just kind of stepping outside of of the world that we live in oftentimes in you know, hotel ballrooms and behind computer screens and immersing into live performances
Madeleine McGirk 03:16
on your brain off did you get oh,
Jeff M. Poulin 03:20
boy did i i Yep, went to the imaginary land of Belleville in bad Cinderella. And then went to a cornfield in Shucked, which is highly recommended. Really, really fantastic, entertaining and of course, like you lots of cheese and wine throughout New York City. So well, Madeline, amidst all of that you fit in the time to have a really wonderful conversation, to which I just listened to, and I'm so excited to talk about, but why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about the individual whom you chatted with?
Madeleine McGirk 04:00
Yes, so I interviewed one of our commission claiming artists this year, but also someone we've worked with on a whole ton of attack projects. And Pavel is based in the Netherlands as a teaching artist and you'll hear all about his practice when he describes it in our chat. But we worked with Pavel I think before the climate project as one of our Edan engagement teaching artists. So that's the project where we partner with Joyce DiDonato on her world tour. And we finely teach artists and every stop of that tour to run engagement workshops with local choirs ahead of the concerts. And it's all about building impact into international touring. And Pavel is one of the teaching artists who came along, ran climate workshops, and documented the whole thing. And then now is doing this amazing work in communities with AR and VR using it to work with young people on imagining climate futures and choices and thinking About if you make this choice, what would the community look like in this many years, and it's just really creative ways of approaching really specific issues. And I also know that he's just had a trip to go and visit one of our colleagues over in Ghana from the attack conference. So he's doing amazing stuff all over the place. And I think I said this too before, but you don't really know how he's going to approach it. But you know, whatever he ends up doing is going to be really cool and fun to watch. So I thought he'd be a really cool person too, to bring to the podcast, how did you find it? What struck you?
Jeff M. Poulin 05:35
So many things, I think, if I were to recommend two things that listeners keep their ears open for the first is around embracing multidisciplinary generalism. And the second is about how technology is not a threat, but instead a tool for imagination. So why don't we take a listen and we'll come back and discuss on the flip side.
Madeleine McGirk 06:11
Hello, and welcome. And thank you so much for being here to talk to me by changing the podcast. And I am so pleased to be able to talk with you Pavel right now, and share more about your work with whoever's listening, and just really dive into a bit more about you. So to give a little background for people listening, Pavel is one of our amazing commissioned attack impact artists who is doing work in communities to basically equip, empower all that good stuff with the community members to try and shift perceptions, behaviors, belief around climate change, and to help channel all of that energy towards advocacy. So we have a bit of history. Also, you were at the attack six conference, which was just so much fun to actually get to see you in person after how many years? I don't know. But to get started, and to flesh that out, way more, and can you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself where you are in the world, and explain that work that you do?
Pawel Pokutycki 07:23
Well, thank you very much for this introduction. My name is Pablo, puppeteer ski. I come from Poland, based in the Netherlands. I have been living here for half of my life, by now or more. I'm a creative technologist with a background in interaction design, as a practitioner, teaching artists, a thinker and theorist at times. I like to think about myself this way, sometimes. I'm very much involved in education, specifically higher arts education. I teach at various art academies here in the Netherlands, and occasionally abroad. I'm usually a speaker on the topic of the ethics of technology. And I have a large interest in global south problematics, social, environmental, political, so I kind of itself, but I kind of look up to look up to, to Latin America, Africa for inspiration for knowledge, in the recent years, so also some of my projects would say, Go a bit in that direction. At least I'm trying to. So yeah, that's in a nutshell, how I could introduce myself.
Madeleine McGirk 08:43
Amazing. Thank you. Well, I want to ask you a follow up, I'll come back to it later about ethics and digital stuff. I've been so many things recently, where AI is just at the front of everyone's mind. And so I would love to ask you about that. But first, just because you talked about so many areas there and claimed it was digital, all of that stuff. And just to name a few. Could you talk a little bit more about the main issues that your work addresses in more depth and give examples of how you address those in those art spaces?
Pawel Pokutycki 09:21
Yeah, so there's a large variety. So this question is difficult. Yeah, I, purposely I'm a bit scattered, and abroad. I will explain why also in this interview. Well, so about my projects or my approach? Well, I'm generally an educator, facilitator, and pairing partner for artists, designers and other people. I like to inspire them to use the various varieties of media and technology for social change impact, so I really love collaborating. Asians, but in order to give examples, right, so let's go to examples which are also quite diverse. So for instance, in the last couple of years, I've been working on a, with an artist Diana block on an interactive video installation called Gender monologues that addresses let's say problematics, of, of identity. In different cultures, we've been exhibiting this. It's a work, it's a video installation with vertical projections, portraits of speaking actors that do a short monologue of a known literary or political figure. So it's about historic references. And these actors are cross casted, because they were dressed for this installation. And why do I do this? Yeah, we exhibited this work in Brazil, in Suriname, in Spain, and the Netherlands, and any place we go to, we work with local actors and communities, of course, also the audience's that come to see it. And it's very subtle. And very, I would say, culturally aware art work of art that is supposed to inspire anyone seeing it, to imagine how we would be in a different body of opposite sex, it's operating within the binary context, but, but also, it's about race, we had, for instance, Marilyn Monroe, played by a black actor, and you know, things like that happen. So it's something on the edge of, again, different disciplines, literature, history, film, theater, art. And this is the kind of work I like to get involved in. But then, should I continue? Should I mention more? Yes,
Madeleine McGirk 12:05
please. I'm fascinated by stuff I love.
Pawel Pokutycki 12:08
Then here in the Netherlands, I collaborated with an organization that works with development, that develops tools or methods to engage children in, in cultural activities, and make them also aware of their choices so that they are really conscious of what cultural activities they do with their schools. So I programmed I did develop designed and it was more designed than art, I designed a tool and online tool where children in class can have a discussion with their teacher and with each other on what they would like to do this year, this school year with the culture activities, and this organization, commissioned me to do this, develop this tool. And it's really great to see how also here in the Netherlands, how the educational institutions are thinking of that type of tool. And there I came in Furthermore, as a designer, and also someone who understands the content of all the different disciplines and how, yeah, how to conduct a kind of pedagogical, very active, with children in that, I don't know. Another project. I've been collaborating a couple of years ago with researchers, activists, artists in Ecuador, in the suburbs of Guayaquil, there's a community a privileged community of Afro Ecuadorians, we, the group of these collaborators were started radio helped the community to start a radio station as as, as a form of platform to discuss currently relevant matters in the community or role of the arts, and music and things like that. And I've been involved in this project from the technical side of it, I was in that area, not easy area to be in, it was not an easy project, but we've been installing facilities equipment to run this, this, this radio station and also with some some supporting activities, workshops, and so forth. So you know, yeah, difficult projects, because, you know, I'm not even living there. You know, how to do this from, you know, from my perspective here of living in Europe, but I do think I have to You know, some expertise, knowledge ideas, and I do like to work internationally, and see how it can resonate on to different places around the world?
Madeleine McGirk 15:11
And how do you end up in these projects? Because it sounds like they happen far away from you, or in other parts of the world. So how was your connection to those places?
Pawel Pokutycki 15:23
I guess, first of all, is the interest. I am interested specifically in Latin America and Africa and the last few years, so yeah, I travel or I'm generally a very open person and networks are so fixed to me that even though they, you know, they actively pursue or search, things happen, of course, ITAC. And you know, the organizations that have the relevant network through events, conferences, events, I get to meet people, and engage in these collaborations, and I'm a person that says yes to a lot of things, maybe even too many sometimes, that's also a problem. But I keep on going this way.
Madeleine McGirk 16:11
You're being very modest, because I feel like it's also this incredible skill set you have that spans so many topics, right? You are so in so many zones more than most teaching artists, I think that I've met. And also I think the thing of saying yes to everything. Almost everyone I have interviewed on this podcast, I reckon that would be one thing we all had in common is saying yes, to far too much. But yes, it sounds like there are so you've mentioned a project in gender spaces. And then perceptions. You've mentioned a project in youth agency, and in advocacy and current affairs. So how do you decide on which area to focus on at any given time? Or do you find they all kind of mix and mingle when you get in there?
Pawel Pokutycki 16:58
I think it's a mix of Yeah. feasibility of a project. Yeah. Into intuition. Synergy, you know, working specific people that bring their enthusiasm and envision because it's often collaborations. It's not work. Don't work alone. It's always about other people. But yeah, I am. It's a difficult question. Because yes, I'm not very focused. Exactly. Even on purpose, I decided to not be focused because I'm I don't know, I'm I'm an Aquarius. generalists, I'm specializing in generalism, say, if I specialize in something, it's exactly in this diverse approach. I know that it may sound vague, or not too specific. But you know, I believe there is no topic today that can be sort of addressed just on its own. environmental topics are related to social and political, the local with the global, the digital with the impact on the physical reality are under so. So in a way, this multidisciplinary approach or this dancing around with different approaches is something that I do find, well, interesting. And relevant. And also, there is also purely entertainment, because I like to do discipline swapping, of what however, what binds it all, for me, is technology often and art. So I'm in the field of art and technology of design. And this is often of course, a kind of read, read, you could say thrilled, all these encounters. But sometimes yeah, sometimes it's more on the technical side of things, or on the conceptual side of things. And that 's the difference. I guess, you know, I'm just projecting or, or arriving here with just my own personality. And it's very hard for me to actually focus on just one thing, or to specialize in one domain or one activity. It's again, education, art, technology, these things tend to come back. But for the rest, yes, environmental topics, social topics, they differ very much also per place and per context.
Madeleine McGirk 19:31
I think that's really interesting. Eric always says Eric birth, who we both know, we'll always say 80% of what you teach, it's who you are. And I feel like that's a really good example. The topic is what you model and what you show in a classroom or in a space. And so, I want to pick up on that technology thread because that is also a really specific niche where you work and I know there are a lot of people who consider themselves in arts and tech not apogee, but with teaching artistry, specifically, that is a less trodden field, because so much of what we do is in person and communities. And I know that that's a space to work in. So you've probably sick of giving examples of your work. But if you could talk a little bit about a digital project where you've used the arts, could you talk a bit about what that looked like? Who were your participants? And just what happened?
Pawel Pokutycki 20:26
Yeah, so if you don't mind, I would actually really love to talk about something I'm doing right now. And I'm very much involved, it's related to the award I received. Working with children, and I'm someone who really believes in the need for raising digital literacy among the so called digital natives. They are dying from a generation that, with the digital revolution coming in, I still remember computers that didn't have, like, my graphic interface, yet, you know, type commands. And, you know, it was just different for me, but that, the, the, again, the young generation computer users or smartphone users, they are Yeah, schools, I think, you know, also do not do enough to really upgrade the digital literacy among, among young people. So they are very handy with digital technologies, but not necessarily to understand like programming or, or actually what's in the so called black box, they I refer to that very often there is this digital natives sliding on the surface of the of their phones, but swiping and all that, but that's it necessarily now understand what's inside. And of course, that has large implications to, you know, freedoms, of course, privacy, security, all these issues that are often addressed. But also Yeah, you mentioned AI, and, and all of that there is a need to, to understand a bit more about these technologies. So what I'm doing in education, I'm trying to actually teach, turn some of these children into little nerds, geeks, you know, that would, you know, that would get their hands dirty with digital technologies, but to not just do technology for the sake of technology. I have mixed this approach with also teaching environmental awareness, and let's say, climate action. So I, I, I developed a, and I'm still working on it. And I'm developing a whole curriculum of assignments and exercises that combine innovative digital technologies, with discussions, brainstorm sessions, sketching, and prototyping projects that are in one way or the other, relating to climate change, or climate action. To give an example, for instance, I recently taught kids how to do 3d modeling and animation and virtual reality and augmented reality and things like that. But the assignment is to imagine species like animals or plants from the future affected by climate change. So so so they, so they are the children, I asked to imagine to understand, of course, what's really going on, let's say plastic soup, you know, and other issues we are dealing with, and then how would that, you know, what, how would the species develop? What will be the future of evolution, then, you know, how would they look? And it's, of course, a speculative, you know, speculative design project or like, very imaginative artistic, but as they do that, they relate to the thing they create the the land tools, they are tools of the now the same digital creativity, but also tools that relate I guess, to some kind of imaginary futures with the you know, aesthetics they bring, and I think this is a way I like to work. And that's something I think this project also shows quite well how I tend to mix the tech neurological, or design or art with other social or environmental topics that need to be addressed. So I do like to work with digital technologies too, to look into these problems.
Madeleine McGirk 25:16
That's so exciting. I just found that the approach of VR and AR to imagine space and what it could look like later, after climate change, is such an impactful tool for changing behaviors, or maybe asking people to make more conscious choices. And I think as well, there's this, we often hear in our sector, that you've got to meet people where they are. And when you go into work with a group, you meet them where they are. And I think there's such a resistance or a nervousness, to meet young people in that digital space, because it feels like they know so much more about it, or they're more equipped or whatever. But it just feels like that's the future, that's where we need to be, and resisting that feels.
Pawel Pokutycki 25:58
But you know, they're often they're often Yeah, only consumers and kind of receivers, things of, you know, social media platforms. And that so it's really the emphasis again, on creativity. And, and, relearning the tools, it's something that is very important, I guess, and I think more overall, I should be done about that at school. So this is also where I come in, you know, kind of maybe intruding, disrupting, you know, these established paths. For instance, you know, computer science classes are separated for art classes, or a biology class is not connected to, you know, so this is what I dislike, again, about focus and disciplinary structures in, in education. And I'm exactly like the crossovers because for me, these things are combined, or can be combined, and they also enforce each other and create the way you can learn about the environment, through art. And the other way, you know, it's, it's, it's I like these types of overlaps. And I think that, again, this being on the edge of different disciplines of different approaches where I love to be, because that's where interesting things happen, or things that are not so common, I think, still, in the systems, we, you know, the principles were how education operates even in higher, you know, from primary secondary to higher education, it's this, you still have this specificity, this clusters of knowledge. And the interactions between these clusters are limited.
Madeleine McGirk 27:44
I find that crazy, I had a whole big rant about this last conference. And the idea that school still splits up subjects by what they think it is, or what they think will equip you to go and do it as if art is wildly different from science as a footballer, both aren't just creative endeavors to do something is wild to me. But I'm so glad there are people, there are the puzzles of the world going in and pointing out how ridiculous that is. Because it just doesn't serve the purpose anymore, in my opinion. So yeah, that's really nice to hear. So can you talk more about the ethics of that then because I want to pick up on it every, every space I've been in recently, international conference, education spaces, this concept of AI has come up again and again and again. And this sort of them, there's a sort of overall energy, this is some, you know, Frankenstein's monster that we've now created and have no idea how to control or utilize, and I'm sure there are people who feel that's not true at all. But the ethics around that and what to do with it, or if what it ought to be or not to be, could you just talk a little bit from your area of expertise about that whole emergence and how you're finding that.
Pawel Pokutycki 29:05
So, of course, every case requires more specific analysis of the ethical concerns and so forth. But you know, in general, when it comes to environmental ethics, or technological ethics of technology, the weight is on the humans, we know, so like with any technology, you know, you can act responsibly with that technology or not. I guess, yeah, it's hard to come up with one statement on this, but things indeed got quite complex. And it's just maybe even the beginning. So be prepared for for more You know, my approach to AI specifically is very, I have mixed feelings because it's such a fascinating technology, absolutely for also creativity, the so called Creative aim in working with this with my students, bachelor students, mostly, but also kids recently went doing and doing AI with the kids like generating some images and animating them things like that. So, you know, yeah, it's, it's so powerful and inspiring also. The ethics of it. Yeah. So again, the big question is how it is used, and in what contexts where, and it's very hard to have one, one approach to discussing it also in different different circuits. In higher education, for instance, you know, chat GPT, threatening, you know, like, challenging the reviewers of papers, you know, and, and other people behind this environment. But at the same time, seeing the creative side of it, we need to be able to cope with it in one way or the other responsibly. And some methods to do that, or practices will be emerging as we go. So I'm optimistic. I'm not, I'm definitely not, I'll say a robo FOB.
Madeleine McGirk 31:51
I haven't heard that before. But in five years, I will hear that.
Pawel Pokutycki 31:55
I am an enthusiast of technology, of course, responsible, inclusive and ethical approach to that. That's why I also think that as the example I gave here, I can work with AI and machine learning with children to think of sustainable futures or ecology and environmental awareness. And I think, you know, in a paradoxical way, all these artificial things that we've created as humanity can, yeah, it's a paradox. But maybe, eventually these artificial beings creation can help us to return to nature understand nature to you know, so what, imagine if AI is used, is paired with, with, for instance, nature or plans as a security system against the human could, you know, could could nature benefit from Ai, sort of, you know, in relation to the human attempts to? I know, it's very paradoxical, like a situation, but maybe something like that is needed to, you know, to protect the Amazon area, you know, with some technology that's going to see things and any attempt to intrude in this area. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I'm just thinking this is maybe eventually. So there is, that's also where I'm trying to go. Can we use technology, digital technology, for the benefit of natural environments, biodiversity? That's something that fascinates me if this could go that way. Because it's unstoppable. To, you know, to stop technology, it, of course, the corporate, you know, the business will always push it further. But then, what's the role of artists and world critical thought is okay, okay, we have the technology. But can we use a different purpose so that I think there's, obviously I'm politicizing all these technological inventions on the more, let's say, left progressive side? I would rather see it there. And I think there are ways to Yeah, to do it. And they are emerging as we go. So
Madeleine McGirk 34:17
It's amazing. I'm going to be thinking about that for quite a level
Pawel Pokutycki 34:23
emancipatory technologies, climate action technologies and things like that. I think this is where we might be eligible for social or environmental topics. I think there is definitely a role that technology can play in a good way. Yeah.
Madeleine McGirk 34:44
Well, I feel like this is a good segue because at this point, I feel like you've spoken about so many quite in depth topics, but you seem to know lots of so I wonder what how did you get here? What has that journey been? Where did you start? And what has that step by step to get to this point look like for you?
Pawel Pokutycki 35:07
I had a serendipitous adventure, saying yes to many different things, being open, reading different types of literature, playing with what I do, experimenting, and challenging myself. And it's not. You know, it's still a journey. Yeah, you say, I sound as if, hey, you know, I mean, to some extent, I don't know, you know, I'm not. I guess this being intuitive and, and playful in what I do is just how I am. And I don't, I don't like to also think of myself as I have this, you know, that I possess this wisdom that, you know, I'm also vulnerable in this process. I'm not everything works, you know, or not everything is a success story, it's it's often a struggle to, to make really that change we talking about? I mean, I think I wish I could do way more and have a larger impact. For which, yeah, also impact awards, I think is gonna be very helpful for but it's, it's a journey. So yes, I had a lot of work to do and a lot of things to think about, and also, I guess, adapt to the always changing circumstances. That's also that flexibility, you know, it's needed in these adventures? Yeah, because I also, yeah, also, certain things I wasn't thinking about. And in the past, and now, they realized, that I also made a lot of, let's say, changes along the way of my perception of how I see things when I started traveling more to the global south countries in sort of other problems over there. And when, of course, more and more we got to know about climate change and ethics of technology, none of that, you know, that things change over time, I was not so much into ethics of technology, when I was studying interaction design and being this Yeah, I wasn't aware yet back then, of the ethical concerns, and as we then being observant and sensitive to all the news, and, you know, and, and our problematic encounters with technology, I changed my mind. And I think this adaptability to changing circumstances is also something that would be my advice to anyone, like, you know, to be open and be able to adapt or be flexible in our journeys as we go.
Madeleine McGirk 37:58
So would you say that initially, you had trained as an artist as a designer, as all of the above? Like, what would that beginning look like?
Pawel Pokutycki 38:10
So I was really very much into art and technology. That was my, that. That's why I also mentioned it as this red thread. But yeah, but of course, what is technology? So in a more philosophical sense, I remember having these discussions somewhere in Brazil. I guess, why do you associate technology with digital technology? Technologies are a body, you know, human bodies, that technology, nature is a technology? In a way? That's why again, I had to also end, indeed, you know, how much inspiration actually for technological development comes from laws of nature, actually, and finger finger? These kinds of things, right, right now, there is, seems to be a relationship, some bizarre relationship between, for instance, internet structures, and, you know, and, and growing plants and things of that kind. So I think even though yes, I have a background in digital technology and, and some specific, again, interactive art forms. Yeah, I'm also very much for instance, into into music, you know, it's very important part of like to engage in work with musicians, for instance, Joyce DiDonato, so I was involved in a great project she's doing with still continuing doing with, with children's children's choirs in different countries have been also involved in this. So yeah, these types of initiatives have just been so powerful for that change.
Madeleine McGirk 39:50
Until right now, the connection between the growth of fungi and plants and the growth of technology and the sort of similar way in which it breaks up in different places, but it's my mind a little bit blown. Wow. Okay. So I think you've kind of answered this next one already. But I just want to ask you outright, because I feel like your perspective on this will be interesting. So looking ahead to the future, what do you think is the most crucial thing change makers should be focusing on, and you've named a few things there. But if you were to make a guess, at where we should all be focusing our energy, so we are equipped or ready for whatever comes next, what do you think that would look like?
Pawel Pokutycki 40:37
Oh, well, I do think that, again, climate change, problematics are and should be at the center of a lot of things we do in the coming time. So this environmental awareness and action is kind of at the core of many things. So whether you focus on social justice projects, or, or again, technology and all that, it's good to kind of relate it all to that bigger picture, because we are really in big trouble here on planet Earth. So this is in terms of content, you know, what I think it should be? And then what was the most crucial thing for changemakers? Here to be focusing on? Well, I would say, course, let's stay focus on some things, but do look at you know, practices in other disciplines or or work of, of other people focusing again, on other things, because things are, again, in the context of this climate change projects and things are really interrelated. And, you know, we talk about intersectionality. And, well, diversity in political action or, you know, so it is, stay playful. Like, also enjoy it even in activist work, for instance, and, you know, sometimes struggling, be open and kind of reach out to different circuits, different people. And with your work and. Yeah, and embrace, you know, some some, to some degree stay flexible and adaptable to the changing circumstances. So, yeah. This is a bit of a mix of advice in terms of content, what we should focus on also the method.
Madeleine McGirk 42:43
Yeah, amazing. Thank you. Well, I think we're coming to the end of our time. So to wrap things up, I tend to always ask a few quickfire questions just to help people get to know the sort of inner workings of you even better. So, if you are ready, I will jump right in. And, okay, who inspires you
Pawel Pokutycki 43:08
right now? Rosi. Braidotti, she's an Italian philosopher. We love her writings on the so-called post human knowledge critical post humanities, it's a field that inspires a lot of my work. Well,
Madeleine McGirk 43:24
and what keeps you motivated?
Pawel Pokutycki 43:27
Oh, my own ambition, I guess and people around me, that keep me going.
Madeleine McGirk 43:35
And where are you most grounded
Pawel Pokutycki 43:38
in nature. In the moment of being there, biking in the dunes here where I live in The Hague. That's where I'm mostly grounded. I'm rarely grounded. So this is really the place
Madeleine McGirk 43:53
and how do you stay focused?
Pawel Pokutycki 43:56
I'm not focused at all. And don't want to be
Madeleine McGirk 44:00
nice. Okay, and finally, why change?
Pawel Pokutycki 44:06
Why not?
Madeleine McGirk 44:09
Excellent. Well, I'll probably end the interview. I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here. And we'll share some links to your work and all the rest of that in the show notes. So if anyone wants to go in deep dive or follow Pavel online, and we'll post all of that in the show content, all that's left to say is a massive thank you for spending time with me Pavel and explaining and exploring all of that for us. So thank you.
Pawel Pokutycki 44:39
Thank you very much for this very pleasant and enjoyable interview
Jeff M. Poulin 44:51
and we're back. Madeline, thank you for sharing that conversation was inspiring and really got me thinking about a few things, both personal and professional. But before I share those, what were your takeaways? What's still lingering with you after the conversation?
Madeleine McGirk 45:12
I was one of those people where every time we speak, and I, we don't get to chat as much as I'd like. But every time we do, I come away with a different way of thinking about how to talk about teaching artistry, which feels like a really heavy thing to see. But it's not necessarily leading with an art form or a topic, it's more thinking about what tools you have at your disposal, and just how to apply those. And not necessarily being an expert in any one space. But just coming very fully with everything you do have and applying that, wherever you can be useful. And yeah, I, it's sort of hard to describe, but I just always come away thinking, Oh, I could do this. And that and the next thing and the ideas that haven't really struck me until I hear people talk about what he's been doing. Does that make sense? It certainly
Jeff M. Poulin 46:03
does. I think that was sort of what I the seed that I planted in the beginning of our conversation around that multidisciplinary generalism in the sense that I think the list that he gave was that he was an ethicist, a technologist, a creative I would add to that an activist and environmentalist you know, like, there's so many things and kind of threading that needle through the use of, of creative practice and technology, as the commonality is certainly a piece of it. But I think so often in our field, specifically in our individual growth as people, we get kind of shoehorned into these silos, where we need to, you know, really describe, I am a 2d visual artist, you know, or I am a tap dancer, which is sort of my story versus saying, you know, something really general, it's like, I am a creative who practices storytelling through blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, like this kind of all encompassing, set of, of skills that can be applied towards a goal. And I think pebbles' goal for impact in the world is very clear. But it's sort of assembling both the identity and the tools that make that work. And those can change over time. And, you know, he's very, very comfortable sitting in that light gray area, which I think is a takeaway for me that I should be more comfortable, perhaps sitting in the gray area, when we often are challenged to be really descriptive about
Madeleine McGirk 47:42
the project manager, and we just fiercely resists gray areas all the time. I'm like, What do I write in my spreadsheet? You're quite right. I think the recognition that when he does work over in the advocacy space, it goes in, enriches his ability to work in the tech space. Like rather than making him less of an expert on either one is just such a useful thing to remember. You can't work in a vacuum and expect things to be moved, it has to be part of a bigger hole. And I think he navigates that really skillfully and, sort of, threads that really well. Yeah. And
Jeff M. Poulin 48:18
Maybe that's one of his big strengths. I don't think he said this, but picking up on what you shared about being creative in the space of social innovation at the school forum. Right? There's, there's a skill set that we need for people who are multidisciplinary, that do change sectors, which is about translating, and that's something in your work with teaching artists and my previous work with teaching artists I used to say like that is a teaching artist superpower is having the vocabulary of both worlds and being the bridge. And I think perhaps that something underlying the the abilities that Pavel sort of brings to this conversation, but also, you know, just his work in general, is that ability to sort of code switch between different languages and approaches and, and things and to find those commonalities. Actually, in some of our research at Creative Generation, we talk a lot about being the bridge. Leadership is sort of leadership in our sector is around bridging, and connecting, you know, our work to others work our field to others fields, you know, our our sector to other sectors and crosswalking language is a huge component of that. But that speaks to the second big takeaway that I had, which is about the tools that are in place and the use of technology, sort of as a tool that can enable creativity and imagination towards these new futures, which is something I don't think we often talk about because the arts and culture sector in particular has had a kind of a tight stranglehold on creativity saying like, no you gain creativity through artistic practice in these specific areas, dance music, theater or visual art, versus sort of saying these are all Tools towards that same end. And that creativity and imagination are sort of natural phenomena that can be enhanced, or whatever tools might be out there technology being one, which again, was a little bit of like a broadening of my aperture. You know about this. Because unfortunately, I think our field also sometimes uses technology as an adversary, which is not great.
Madeleine McGirk 50:21
Yeah, I remember the panic when whenever I had to switch to zoom a few years ago, and it was like, immediately, I just kept hearing, or this doesn't work online or this, this can't be done unless we're all in a room together and things and I think there are definitely circumstances for being in a room together is way easier to deliver work. That doesn't mean that it can't be done differently, or approached through tech or enhanced through tech or like, powers project in the, with the young people in the AR is just such a good example of that like shying away from it means we miss this whole way of engaging and a way that young people are particularly literate and as well. And so if you aren't meeting them, where they are, and the platforms they enjoy, I think the impact starts to get increasingly limited. And so it's a nice reminder that yeah, it's not either or it's like a yes, and kind of a thing, and that the richness that comes from just engaging with those and really playing with them can be so huge.
Jeff M. Poulin 51:26
Yeah, and I think, for our sector, too, we need to start to think and grapple like, AI isn't going away, you know, it's here, and it's going to enhance this. And, you know, even with one of our other co hosts, Rachel, we were engaged in lots of conversations about chat GPT and other types of artificial intelligence in their application, both in education and cultural sectors. And, you know, I think it is funny, because the, and I don't know who to credit for this, but I heard an interview somewhere where they were talking about that platform, I feel like it made the rounds on social media a couple of months ago that you uploaded, like one or two photos, and it portrayed you in like six different things. It's like an astronaut, and, you know, the farmer and whatever. And then people were posting them. And you know, there 's good artwork used, you know, made by artificial intelligence, which I think is fine. But every once in a while there was somebody posting it like, well, this is really weird, where they had like seven fingers. And I think that it speaks to two elements, one where it says, real life, human artists will never be, you know, replaced, because AI will have glitches, no matter how good it gets, you know, and because of the data, it used, it thought that you had seven fingers for whatever reason, in fact, you have five. But also, there's a possibility of like, imagine a world where people do have seven fingers, I'm like, what would that mean? And how might that change their life, their experience, their community? I don't know, whatever. Maybe this is a poor example. But I think that there's an element that we've forgotten about this that can open up new possibilities. And I often think about the relationship between sort of futures thinking and science fiction, you know, forever, people have been able to invent real things like cell phones and driverless cars because of like, cartoons from the, like the Jetsons that, you know, that imagined those possibilities, and it gave people those creatives be they artists, or technologists a sort of vision to move towards? And I just wonder what if we had more tools like technology, AI, etc, that can enable our imagination to think more broadly. And named possibilities? Like that, to me it is wonderful, because I think naming those possibilities can help us move towards those futures or help us avoid bad ones, right? Like by actually thinking it through critically, which is the power of, you know, these workshops. But
Madeleine McGirk 54:00
almost I think you're right, it's, it's the kind of job of ours to reframe thinking of these kinds of tools, as not providing answers, but kind of starting conversations, and stimulating whole projects around empathy or imagination, or all these things where we can recognize this as a as an auto generated thing. Not that's telling us how to be but seeing well, what if it was that what if it wasn't that how would we know? What would it look like? And those are the questions that I think teaching artists specifically really thrive on right exploring with the grip, what if and how could it and all the rest? And yeah, I hope we get to a point where on mass people start to feel that way and structure those kinds of conversations around these issues.
Jeff M. Poulin 54:45
Yeah, I think you said it just right, that, you know, we as teaching artists, or however you define that community based artists, participatory artists, creatives, whatever, that's our superpower is like facilitating a thoughtful exploration of possibility. And that is tremendous. And I think pebbles interview here showed so many opportunities for us to engage with our own identities as a piece of that, and new and different tools. So those are my big takeaways from this conversation. But I think this brings us to the end of our time. Madeline, thanks so much for bringing this conversation to our listeners on the wide change podcast and thanks to Pavel for sharing, tremendous body of work. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in yet again this week. We'll catch you
Madeleine McGirk 55:36
next time so much.
Jeff M. Poulin 55:39
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write to us at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk, the Executive Editor is me, Jeff employment. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is Katie Rainey, this podcast is about my distant cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.