During this episode of Why Change?, co-hosts Karla and Jeff discuss the change of seasons and Madeleine’s interview with José Angel Salazar Marin from El Sistema Greece. Madeleine and José discuss the role of a musician in educating youth and changing the world - and how to go about doing that! Karla and Jeff break down the dialogue into practical steps for all arts educators towards a more holistic future.
In this episode you’ll learn:
About a musician’s responsibility to the holistic development of the learner;
How access and creating space is an essential component for music education; and
Why action research can inform the field of music education.
Some things from the episode:
José Angel is one of the products of the highly-acclaimed and worldwide recognized model of music education known as “El Sistema” in Venezuela. Being educated and trained in performance, organization and management, José Angel has served as the Main Conductor and Artistic Director of both the regional youth orchestra and the symphony orchestra of his hometown Margarita Island, and invited as a guest conductor for different productions of prominent venezuelan orchestras. He has also taken different conducting masterclasses and seminars both as passive or active participant, such as the Italian Opera Academy by Riccardo Muti in Ravenna, the Hans Swarowsky Akademie with Manfred Huss in Vienna, among others.
José Angel has been invited as a music teacher and conductor to assist in different Sistema inspired programs around the world, such as the Fundacion Orquesta Sinfonica Juvenil del Ecuador (FOSJE) in Ecuador, the Saint Lucia School of Music, and the El Sistema Sweden Dream Orchestra, where he also worked with underprivileged youth at risk, children in extreme poverty status, refugees and migrants, using music education as a tool for social integration and human development. Jose Angel serves currently as the Artistic Director of ESG, where he is very happy to contribute reproducing the venezuelan model, adapting it to the Greek society and culture, helping children and youth from very varied backgrounds and social status.
This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s web page and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC.
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
This is why change the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera 00:08
Oh, Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs 00:09
It's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham 00:10
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk 00:10
And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:14
Why change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Why change podcast Jeff here, joined by the lovely Karla Estela Rivera, Karla. How are you?
Karla Estela Rivera 00:46
Oh, I am doing great daylight savings in the United States has come. So we are getting more light. And more light makes me a very happy person. Also, it's, I feel like it's conference season. I feel like I'm getting on a lot of planes and places to meet a lot of people who have a lot of really wonderful things to share. And, and so I've been packing a lot.
Jeff M. Poulin 01:18
Well, I have no doubt that you're packing some excellent outfits if I know you that perfectly match your nails. But yeah, no, I totally agree. It is conference season, it is almost springtime, where I am in the world. And it definitely was daylight savings, both with that loss of one hour of sleep and the continued daylight which just you know, makes our days a little bit brighter, both metaphorically and actually. Well, today, Carla, we have a really interesting conversation from our colleague, Madeline, who, if anyone remembers from our last episode is actually on holidays. So she had a wonderful conversation with Jose from El Sistema Greece, and shared some really interesting insights into not only their program, they're in Greece and the El Sistema movement globally, but also the ways of which artists and musicians are showing up in a multitude of roles in society, which is something I know that you are deeply passionate about. I feel like that was the topic of every conversation you had last season.
Karla Estela Rivera 02:24
Right, right. Well, Carla,
Jeff M. Poulin 02:27
let's give it a listen. And then we'll come back on the flip side to chat about it. Sounds good.
Madeleine McGirk 02:33
Okay, hello, everyone. Hi, Jose, welcome. And thank you so much for being here to talk to me, I'm so happy to be able to talk with you just now and hear more about your work. So to give a little background to people listening, Jose is one of our commissioned attack innovators this year and is doing some really exciting work on action research that I bet we'll get into later. But I also think we kind of have a shared mentor, maybe an Eric can be so keen about that connection to which is lovely. And I don't want to do too much of your introduction, because I feel like you will have a much better way of describing what it is you do. So to get started, can you just tell the listeners a bit about yourself where you are in the world right now? And just explain the sort of bullet points of the work that you came to primarily do
José Angel Salazar Marin 03:25
so well. First of all, thank you very much for this opportunity. And yeah, I mean, I mean, it has been a pleasure to work with you in ITAC. Through Eric, of course, like with Eric, and then having this opportunity to talk to you. My name is Jose, I work as Artistic Director for El Sistema grace, which is a program that is using the El Sistema philosophy, implementing it to the context of the Greek society and covering the needs that are present in this in this context. We work a lot, for example, with refugees in the refugee camps, and also integrating them into the society but then also with all kinds of migraine migrant population and, you know, our work goals in many different ways using music to to empower young people and then also to build a community in which, you know, everybody's welcome and everybody is freer. My work as Artistic Director, basically is to plan the activities that will be happening throughout the year in connection with the goals of the organization. With this primarily pillars that we have, which are building a community and being accessible for everyone, and then also working a lot with the teachers of the program. In how we will deliver Are the program the structure of the program, the academic structure of the program?
Madeleine McGirk 05:07
Thank you. And I think probably a lot of people listening will be familiar with the work of El Sistema because it is such a Themis model in our sector. But I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more for anyone who doesn't know about the work that you do with El Sistema. And you mentioned the refugee population where you are, and give just give a few examples of what that work looks like in practice. And what that does.
José Angel Salazar Marin 05:35
Well, actually, I come from Venezuela, which is that say, the place of origin of El Sistema and the philosophy of El Sistema in general, the sistema movement is using music for social integration, and social development as well. So using ensamble practice, meaning choir orchestras, but not only kind of any sort of musical ensemble as a reflection of a society and how the roles of each musician is a parallelism to the role that people could take in the society. And how we are trained that say, in social values through the musical practice that we that we do, and then also how with music, you can approach holistic development, and holistic education for, you know, educating citizens of a better tomorrow as we would like to think. In El Sistema in Venezuela, for example, there was a lot of work in really privileged areas. And it was really accessible for everyone. But then El Sistema movement is really adaptable to any context in which you are. And then hearing rich, for example, one of the biggest problems apart from having access to music education for free, which we which we offer, then is also there is a problem of the real integration, real, real cohesion between the migrants, the resident population, and the refugee population. That is that is coming from the recent wars in the eastern part of the world.
Madeleine McGirk 07:31
Wow, thank you. And so you mentioned a few social issues there that I feel like we should mention, and just dig a little deeper into, and one was obviously community building. And the other was to do with social values and bringing people together. And another was making it accessible to everyone. So could you give an example maybe of what that work looks like in practice? So I know you run workshops all the time. So what might that workshop look like? Or what might? What might the participants be invited to do when they're part of that program?
José Angel Salazar Marin 08:10
Yeah, so Well, to put it in very practical, you know, in a very practical way, that the issue of accessibility, we tried to tackle it by trying to get funding to have our program, totally free for our participants. And also, thanks to the generosity of many people who have donated instruments we offer the instruments that we are in the program, to the students as well, we don't want to use the word for free because we believe that there is a there is let's say, we offer the instrument and they offer their commitment. So the it's not, it's not entirely for free, this is where we would like to think and then also the students in this way they are enabled to, to learn music and then to have an environment where their education is at the center of what we do. Then also we in the still in the in the accessibility part, what we try to do is to ensure the best quality of education and the best quality of music we can with the resources that we have. And we offer this to our students because we believe that quality, artistic quality and educational quality is very important for the enrichment of of human beings. And so this is on the accessibility part then all the community part then also we try to, let's say when while our program is accessible for everyone also we try to require or to have the same expectations for a everyone, no matter their background, no matter, their country of origin, no matter their religion, no, it really doesn't matter. We see everyone, as equal. And we try to even out the balance that say, we recognize that there are some people that have more needs. So we tried to cover these needs, so that so that the balance is equal in our program, and then the development, you know, what is expected from everyone could really be as equal as possible. This is what we do. In terms of justice, let's say and then also, this becomes this becomes a community, while we try the students as well. We try to promote an environment where the teacher is not above the students, but the teacher is at the same level of the students. And then the students are also in charge of the development of a group, and they share the responsibility with a teacher, so they have to help their classmates. And then we like to believe that this works like circles. So like concentric circles, we have the circle of our classroom. And these are we do there, we replicate it as in the Family Circle, because we will have students that will go to their families or their families will get that say this benefit from this mindset. And then we would like would like to think that these will go to another circle, which is the community circle where you have a family that is having this mindset of bringing this to the community. And in this kind there is there is this kind of ripple effect in the work that we do. And then of course, what we do, because we were talking about creating ensembles, all over music lessons are in groups, and then the students are learning repertoire to perform as part of a bigger sample. So for example, for a very practical example, if you have a student that is coming to learn the violin, in their first class, they will get the violin and then they will start learning in a group their instrument, and they are going to be preparing pieces that they are going to perform as part of a string and sample with other kids and other instruments. And every end of the year of the school year, we have a big gathering where all the students come together. So it's about it's really like learning to play an instrument through the ensembles thesis.
Madeleine McGirk 12:39
It is such a huge amount of work that you do. And I think probably one of the reasons El Sistema is so well known. But I suppose another good starting question is how you ended up here. And you mentioned that you have your roots in Venezuela, and now you're working in Greece. And I know that you've been doing this work for a while. So I wonder if you could share what your journey has looked like up until this point. And if you were to take a step by step through that, what would that look like?
José Angel Salazar Marin 13:13
Well, I, I learned music aid and assistance or movement in Venezuela. So I was really fortunate to have the opportunity to learn music and to to have accessibility, to have access to music education of high quality. I studied violin and orchestra practice. And then I started conducting in Venezuela and I had the chance to become conductor of a youth orchestra. When I was a teenager, I was 14 years old. And there was a need for a conductor. I had my teacher there. So I had the opportunity of working with this jazz orchestra while doing my study. So let's say we grew up in parallel. And then in sistema, I learned that it's not only about the music that you make, which which is high quality, high artistic quality, but then it's also about the environment, the community engagement, the the values that you do transmit. And then as I was growing up, and the situation in Venezuela was getting worse. And you know, some people had to leave the country in order to help their families and et cetera. And I mean, I had this need also I wanted to out of the country to continue studying. But at the same time, I was introduced to the world of teaching. I am not a trained teacher. I am married to an amazing, amazing teacher who has really It made me fall in love with with teaching. And then I started approaching, like music teaching in a more holistic way, not only from the musician point of view that is trying to get some students to play something, but really like a musician that has a responsibility as well for the holistic educational well being of their students while while you are in front of them. So I worked for a year in the in San Lucia and a Caribbean island in a school of music where they were doing a model of a sistema. And then we came to Europe because they opened this position of artistic director and I had been before in Sweden, in Sweden, in an exchange, but working with El Sistema in Sweden, and I knew a little bit of a project in Greece. So I applied for this position. And, and we came, but then also, I tried to develop myself, I tried to continue developing myself in this twofold kind of career, like one career would be the music, making the artistry, the conductor, that is conducting professional orchestras, and always with these values present, but approaching more the artistic side of things, combined with the conductor, who is also a teacher that is working more with a youth orchestra on how to develop themselves as musician as better human beings. So let's say these are the sorts of steps that I have lived through and that I continue to live very every day.
Madeleine McGirk 16:49
Wow. And you started as a participant, and now you're the artistic director. That's amazing.
José Angel Salazar Marin 16:55
Yeah, it's, I think this is part also of the philosophy of El Sistema, which is what you learned you tried to pass on. So I think we are educated in this way in which we believe we have to continue granting this access to these music making opportunities. So because I receive all of this, I feel a responsibility to ensure that many people will also have this opportunity.
Madeleine McGirk 17:24
Wow, it's an amazing legacy to be working towards. Because I can imagine that you see a lot of yourself and the participants that you currently have.
José Angel Salazar Marin 17:34
Yeah, sometimes we sometimes we I don't know, we tend to forget that we were there. But you know, you will have these kids in front of you were reminded you got to constantly have many things and the real value of things.
Madeleine McGirk 17:50
Yeah. Wow. And I know that another facet to your work is the action research project that you're about to be working on. And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about what that is what you're doing with that, and how it links to that work that you've just described? Well,
José Angel Salazar Marin 18:09
one of the fundamental pillars of my growth, let's say lately has been being part of the Academy for impact through music, a, by the healthy foundation, which is an academy that was designed for music teachers, that change makers, actually, that will innovate, through, you know, teaching music for social change. So these Academy has put together a fantastic group of professionals in the teaching artistry, field, but then also musicians and music teachers and programs. And they have tried to tackle the issue of how, as a music teacher, and as a musician, you can continue improving, like there is always a way to improve and not necessarily having to, you know, having to have a teacher to tell you what to do or to or a mentor that will be alongside with you all of the time, but how you can acquire the tools that you need to continue in your professional development. And in aim, they use action research as as one of these tools. So they use actual research as a way of proof, continuous professional development for music teachers. And now, I mean, Eric has been one of the pioneers of because Eric also worked with aim, implementing and curating these action research for teaching artists. And then I had this marvelous opportunity with ITAC to do a workshop on the action research for teaching artists also showing the results that we have had with the Academy of impact through music. And then also now we're putting together a handbook on action research for teaching artists that we are hoping to share with the field. So that teaching artists around the world can have access to this material. And they can with very friendly language with very specific examples, they can find a way to continue to advance it their practice through action research.
Madeleine McGirk 20:39
It's amazing, because as you talk, I feel like every piece of work that you're involved in, is so to do with developing a sector or developing a piece of work by focusing on self development first. And I think that's such an amazing way to approach work. I was at a wellbeing summit earlier this earlier last year now. And one of the key takeaways was the importance of developing your own self, your own practice and capacities before trying to engage and work with others. And I feel like listening to you talk about what you do has just been such an example of kind of kneeling.
José Angel Salazar Marin 21:22
So I think from from the Ames perspective, and I'm sure that from, from Eric's perspective, as well, like, you see the student, you have to see the student as capable and hold and not, for example, as an empty vessel, that you're going to just give information so that they are now filled with information and things to do. But actually, you have to consider that they are bringing a lot of things to the class, and that you are just enhancing them or making them discover their potential and bringing these forward. And in this way, I think also they see teaching artists in the same way, which is the teaching artists, sometime they are already good professionals they already have, all of the information is just that it's like dormant there. And then with action research, for example, you activate these parts in the teaching artist. And then it's just it just makes sense. And then you realize that sometimes professional development is rather than finding mentorship, or rather than, you know, looking for advice, sometimes professional development is in you to just need to unlock this.
Madeleine McGirk 22:42
Right. And that's such a respectful way or historic, more than respectful. And I can't think of the word that I'm trying to say, I guess honoring the people in the room so much more than that empty vessel approach. And I think that's such a, a refreshing way to be approaching things, because I think we probably all agree traditionally that isn't always the case in in a teaching or development setting. But it is such a beautiful way to be approaching that now. And the next question is going to be a really hard one, because you've done so much of kind of really deep value. But if you had to pick one particular project or mission or initiative that you've been involved in, that you're particularly proud of, what would that be? And what is it that makes you think of that one as being the thing that you're very proud of?
José Angel Salazar Marin 23:39
Well, I would have to say, really proud of their work at every step Angries. It has been, I think one of the first projects that I have felt, I have been really part of their development from the from the beginning. And and I'm really proud of where we have where we are now, there is a lot of room for improvement. And I like to I am conscious of the fact that sometimes I'm a bit impatient, and I would like to see things as like, you know, perfect by tomorrow. But then also, I mean, this feeling have always been better, I will never lose it. I hope. So I think that it's good to just take a pause and realize how good things are now. I've been here for four years. So I have really, I have really seen the development of the program, the development of the structure, the development of some teachers of some students as well as the first time I think that I am in a place where where I can see students growing and becoming you know, like, coming from a very distant kind of background and then big probably part of the community and wanting to do more for the program because they also feel the responsibility. So yes, I will have to say, and it has also been, I wanted to say that why I feel proud as well is because personally it has been, it hasn't been easy to come to a new culture, with different approaches for things with many different ways of doing the same things that we do back home in the way that we do in Venezuela. So, personally, it has been a lot of growth in this part as well, understanding, growing and trying to adapt, and being flexible. And I think, this experience, I mean, Corsair, without el sistema, Greece would be really, really different. I think that there is a fundamental part that would be missing.
Madeleine McGirk 26:03
And so picking up on that idea of growth and developing and looking to the future with that, your work and the spaces you work in deal with some pretty significant social challenges or really specific contexts. And there are so many social issues right now, and contexts where teaching artists are working. But I wonder looking ahead to the future, if you have a thought, or what do you think is the most crucial thing that change makers should be focusing on? And if you were to make a guess, that we're we should all be focusing our energy. So we're ready for that future that comes whatever comes next. What do you think that would look like?
José Angel Salazar Marin 26:48
You know, it's, it's very, I mean, yeah, it's a difficult question in the sense that we, it's, as a good friend says, If I were a mathematician, I would do mathematics to change the world. But because I'm a musician, I do music to change the world, for example, I think that we are all in different areas, and everybody from their, from their perspective can do something to improve. But the, I think the common thing that we see is that there is there is room for improvement in the world in which we live in nowadays. And I think that everybody from their perspective could do could do something. In from our part, for example, for me something that the fundamental thing would be, you know, make whatever you do accessible for people, like whether you are, whether you are a musician, whether you are a dancer, whether you're a music teacher, whatever you do make it accessible, because people need this, I mean, we need this as human beings as artists that we need to express ourselves. Also, people need this. And also, education, let's say would be the answer to many problems. Like if we have a space for understanding and we have a space for, you know, talking freely and understanding basically different points of view, and, and different, you know, different sides of what we do. Everything would be much better, this is what I would like to believe. So make everything accessible, and maybe create spaces, like create spaces for people, I think that the era of the artists who is like, above on a stage just performing, it's coming to an end because people need to be part of what you do.
Madeleine McGirk 28:49
I feel like that's a very wise answer that I'm gonna listen back to again, and your friends cool, I think is gonna stick with me for quite a while if he was a mathematician, that's how it changed the world. him. Okay, thank you. And finally, on the podcast to help people around the world, sort of understand even more about you. And we try to ask everyone at the sort of wrap up of the short just some quickfire questions and ask you to give sort of quickfire one word responses or short responses. And I'm just gonna throw these at you and and see what you say. Is that okay?
José Angel Salazar Marin 29:31
Yeah, it will be I will do my
Madeleine McGirk 29:35
thing. Thank you. So the first one is Who inspires you?
José Angel Salazar Marin 29:40
My students
Madeleine McGirk 29:43
and what keeps you motivated? My students where are you most grounded
José Angel Salazar Marin 29:54
at home, I think yeah,
Madeleine McGirk 29:56
I really thought you were gonna say with your
José Angel Salazar Marin 29:59
No, no. vary by state and say, sometimes you have to be, you know, you have to fly, let's say so, really at home.
Madeleine McGirk 30:06
Okay? And where do you stay focused? Or how do you stay focused?
José Angel Salazar Marin 30:18
You know, through use the ISA focus through discipline, like, sometimes it's difficult to stay focus with many things, but you know, just keeping the main goal in mind, which is, you know, making something better for everyone.
Madeleine McGirk 30:37
Okay, and finally, why change?
José Angel Salazar Marin 30:42
Because we can, because we can always do better, I think, I don't know if this is a very perfectionist, or I don't know, like toxic perfectionist way of seeing things. But I think that I think that we can do better, so why not?
Madeleine McGirk 30:59
Thank you. I don't think that's toxic at all. I think that's the opposite. That's amazingly optimistic. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for giving us a snapshot of looking at your work and what it is you do. I mean, it's also deep rooted and, and long sighted and in that sense, so I mean, we were never going to be able to dig as deep as I would love to. But thank you for taking the time to talk to us about it. To explain that and to, to give folks a chance to know what's going on. I'll ask you to share some links with us so that if people want to learn more or hear more about what it is you're doing, they can they can look in the show notes and find some links to go and deep dive it a little more. Was there anything else you want it to share? Make sure you said before we signed off?
José Angel Salazar Marin 31:52
No, I mean, again, I mean, I wanted to thank you, because connecting to what we have been talking about, this is a space you create for people. And this is an accessible, accessible space you create for people to know what is going what what is going on, and to see how they can be part of things and to get ideas and to get inspired. And, you know, to have a space to brainstorm to take a pause and reflect on things as well. Sometimes we are doing too much. And we never take you know, at that time to just think about what we're doing. And for example, this space for me has been really refreshing for that. So I thank you for being part of this.
Madeleine McGirk 32:35
Thank you. I'm so excited to share this episode with people, I really think people are gonna get a lot out of it. So a big thank you again, and I look forward to connecting with you again soon. Thanks, Rosie.
Jeff M. Poulin 32:49
And we're back. All right, Karla. What did you think about this conversation about musicianship and changing the world?
Karla Estela Rivera 33:00
You know, what's interesting is, you know, I am not a musician, and I'm not steeped in any of those. Those flagship organizations that are really doing work, not only nationally, but globally. And I've heard the term El Sistema millions of times, and I've kind of shied away from it, because it sounds like I'm going to indoctrinate you into this particular way. And it does sound a little bit. I don't know, like you have to almost meet it, you know, meet meet them where they're at, but quite, but I was really surprised and thrilled and affirmed by this conversation and by what El Sistema does, and, you know, the work that's being talked about here, in this interview, this notion of accessibility, this notion of music being a tool for social change, the image of the concentric circles of how you, you know, you impact the student, and the student can then impact the family. And that family then impacts their communities. I was really, really inspired by, by, by, by this interview, and also just the mission of our system was work and what's being done, particularly in Greece and other places across the country.
Jeff M. Poulin 34:29
Yeah. 100%. I mean, the El Sistema movement is something that, you know, inspires me every day. And, you know, and I think about in the term in the terms of our work, oftentimes, you know, we're thinking about how do we catalyze that social transformation, and we can harken back to interviews with a number of folks that that use that term social transformation. But what I pulled out from this dialogue was really about that specific role of the musician, that quote of, if I were a mathematician, I'd use math to change the world, but I'm a musician. So I use my music to change the world, coupled with Jose basically saying, you know, the the era of the artist on a stage in front of people is just over. It leaves me with such a charge to reimagine how musicians and artists in general, have a place in our communities, how they interact with young people and families and the broader community, and the lasting impact that that has, through a really holistic approach to musicianship. And that, to me is something that kind of unlocks the space that we want to be in, particularly in why change right of driving the change within our field in order to have these outputs that can ripple out into communities and the world at large. And, and I think that that is a wonderful charge for the artists side of all of us to think about where we sit and what we do.
Karla Estela Rivera 36:12
Yeah, I agree. 100%. And the other thing that I pulled from this interview with Jose is also this notion of balance. It, you know, to your point about the quote, of the time of the, the musician, being, you know, up on this stage is over, really shows itself throughout this interview, thinking about everything from, you know, deep, you know, kind of demystifying or debunking you know, the myth of free programming. And, you know, I think a lot of people, you know, free programming can be really controversial in certain communities. And that free programming isn't free, right? That he says, we provide the instruments, the students provide their commitment, so that there is this symbiotic balance and a contract between them. And an exchange, that really, is not only beneficial to the student, but also to the educator. And we see the cell. So in when they talk about professional development opportunities, where it's honoring the people in the room, and also what they're bringing into the room. I think, you know, one, when we are, I think many of us, you know, you and I have certainly both facilitated a lot of workshops. And we've also participated in a lot of workshops. And so, you know, I try as much as possible, to not be the person, you know, up at the, you know, you know, up in the front of the room that holds all of the information, because that would be a really false statement. In fact, you know, a really wonderful facilitator of workshops will harness the gifts that are in the room, and also provide space for that exchange. And, you know, what Jose has shared is that, you know, it's not just about teaching the craft, but it is also about how we provide space in these rooms, for the kinds of exchanges that not only bolster the craft of musicianship, but also, you know, how we get along as human beings, and that he was super beautiful.
Jeff M. Poulin 38:41
Yeah, what is that there's a saying, you know, you need to be the the guide by the side, rather than the sage on the stage, I think is how it goes. I don't know who to credit that to. But someone said that much smarter than me before. But I totally agree with that sentiment, that it's, it's really about that holistic approach and that holistic development of young people. And I think it's a really interesting paradigm shift to say, you know, you are a musician, and a musician who teaches, we might say, teaching artists, that is responsible, certainly for the artistic development, that is kind of the core nugget of what you're doing. But through that lens of not being the full on, you know, expert, and this is the only way to do it, but actually holding that space to cultivate new in different ways. And that's how the arts evolve. But at the same time, holding the space to also look after the other elements of the human experience and cultivate that to you know, it's really interesting because I had a revelation recently, Karla, that I myself as a teaching artist I'm attempting is teaching artists that is my art form. And I had this kind of big aha moment I was driving and I was like, why is it I was asking myself, why is it that so many A teaching artists kind of passed down knowledge in one way, this is the way I learned it. So that's how you're going to learn it. And that has been kind of cultivated in these vestiges of, of knowledge in the dance world, whether it's like the Vaganova technique or you know, the this is Yuki technique and music or whatever, right? That there is one way to do it. And I just really wonder if we took a lesson from say jazz improv or tap dance where in tap, there's actually no dictionary, there is the notion of swapping steps, I do something, I teach you what I did, you innovate on it, do something a little bit different than it becomes the Jeff step and the Karla step. And then there's something that we may create together. And it's Jeff Carla's step, and then evolves and evolves and evolves. And it's a constant evolution of the art form. And so I just wonder, that type of generosity in our artistry, especially in our teaching artistry, where we're not only passing down generationally, the knowledge that was to what the knowledge can be, but also fostering that space, to totally change it up for the future and see the power to the next generation of artists to evolve the art form in new and different ways. I don't know, I just this is something I think about a lot. And I feel like it was encapsulated in what's happening both with El Sistema but also within, you know, el sistema, Greece, and the work that Jose is doing, that was shared in that this conversation.
Karla Estela Rivera 41:32
Yeah. And I think that speaks to the power of informal pathways of learning. This, you know, this worship of the conservatory program? And which, look, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm certainly not saying that conservatory programs are bad. But I do think that they're highly inaccessible. For many folks, and, you know, if those were the only outlets available for any student to access to which that is their vocation, you know, one, you know, you're losing an entire, you're losing swaths of creative people. One, and two, there is very little room to deviate from, you know, what is I would you know, in theater, we call it the canon or, you know, the ways of doing things and, you know, these informal ways of learning certainly bring those classic elements in what I would call those basic building blocks. In storytelling, you know, there is the the narrative structure, right, and musician, you know, making music is also its own form of storytelling. And so I think these ways of teaching informally, and then providing space, to then have the students not only communicate what they've learned from what you've taught them, but then to say, uh, now I'm going to innovate here, and go to this other place. And I may not have a formal name for it, I, you know, I may call it something wildly different. I remember being at a conference a few years ago. And, you know, I was with it was an art education conference. And there were these students that were doing a particular dance and the moves weren't 100% crisp and accurate, according to somebody who was a dancer sitting next to me. And the terminology that they were using was not according to them proper terminology. And these folks were really angry about the terminology, but they weren't seeing the transformative space that these people have created. And so that's what excites me about who says interview in the work that Jose is doing, and what they're doing globally, because that is where I think that's the sweet spot for me, that is the place where I enjoy. And that's, I think, how I came up as an artist as well. And we and we see this as a testament to his life because he started as a participant and now he's an artistic director.
Jeff M. Poulin 44:32
Yeah, you know, two things that you just said Carla really resonate with me the first is this idea of, of holding the space like those of us that do have privilege and power and decision making authority, that we just need to create those spaces that increased accessibility and and hold the opportunities for people to own their own work, you know, like to just get the hell out of the way you know, open the door and And, and step out. But also, you use the term vocation. And it's funny because I feel like that was exactly the piece here that gives me some peace of mind in in that our vocations can be wildly different we can be teaching artists are arts educators, we can be working artists or musicians, which we know is only a very small, you know, piece of the the arts and cultural sector pie. But we can also be folks that, that give money that are in charge of philanthropy, or people that are evaluating programs or people that are running programs, excellent project managers, and program administrators, arts managers, if you will. And the idea here though, is that a piece of that vocation is the commitment to change the world, whether as a musician or a mathematician, or an arts manager, evaluator funder, teaching artists, you name it, it's about really surrounding yourself with people that have those, those same values and that same Northstar vision for what it is that we're doing here. I think the point of, you know, the change that we want to see that we talk about in every episode on why change is that it's about the people, and those people who have the vision for a better world and use their artistry or their craft or their vocation, to open those doors, hold those spaces, look after the whole human and create the world that they want to see. And that's a piece that we forget, right? Like, when was the last time change the world was listed in a job description? You know, I think we need to start moving towards that. I don't know, don't you?
Karla Estela Rivera 46:44
Yes, it's you know, and, you know, this is I mean, I think you and I are kind of cut from the same cloth in that way, which is why it's not just this work for the sake of the work. Right, it is this work with, with a mission. And, and it is also the great experiment of planting a seed and seeing how it grows. And, and I think What's lovely about, you know, you know, if you are secure in your vocation, and in your artistry, and kind of your brand, and how you do things that might also, you know, integrate other ways of doing things, and you and I are both artists, you are a dancer, I'm a storyteller and a writer. But what we do, we, with our chosen vocation, is also engaging in social change, work, engaging in, you know, building and growing our network, engaging in information exchange, and engaging in a global conversation about how our vocations can in fact, enhance the world outside of the intrinsic value of artistry. And, and so, yeah, do I think that changing the world should certainly be on a on a, you know, in a position description? Absolutely, I think we should all strive to leave this world better than we found it, and also leave the room, you know, leave room for for people, you know, you know, use gardening metaphors a lot. But, you know, if you have roses, and I come, you know, with hibiscus, the way that we tend to, you know, those flowers are going to be very, very different, they can all be part of the same garden. And then other people will bring different, they will bring in their traditions, they will bring in their languages, they will bring in the different kinds of flowers and plants that then all of a sudden, you've got this stunning, you know, garden that that that, you know, is about us meeting each other where we're at and exchanging and just having, you know, a rose garden, which will be pretty, but but will be limited. And why are we limiting ourselves?
Jeff M. Poulin 49:17
I love this analogy. It's also so much springtime, I can tell you right into your brain, that everything is a garden analogy. You know, I think Karla that is the perfect analogy that that we can land on here. You know it is that that beautiful compilation of diversity that create that space. And to take the analogy just one step further. I think what Jose really was talking about, you know, is cultivating the conditions for that garden to thrive, you know, the right soil and watering daily and things like that, that we could run with this forever. But, you know, that charge though, is one that's really important and that we shouldn't forget it. And I think that's where we can leave it today with the charge to use our artistry in ways that cultivate the space for a type of garden. Yeah. Well, Karla thanks so much for joining me. And thanks. Shout out to Madeleine who is on vacation right now for bringing us a wonderful interview. And thank you to Jose for the brilliance that was shared. And thank you to all of our listeners. We'll catch you next time.
Karla Estela Rivera 50:24
Yeah, see you soon.
Jeff M. Poulin 50:26
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write us at info at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk, the Executive Editor is me, Jeff employee. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is Katie Rainey, this podcast theme music is by distant cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.