During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Madeleine and Jeff discuss their work related to advocacy for teaching artists and systems change. Madeleine shares her interview with Gowri Savoor, a teaching artist focused on empathy and relationship building through community arts projects, especially for climate change. The discussion connects narrative building to arts-research to advocacy strategies and how we learn them!
In this episode you’ll learn:
How the arts can cultivate empathy in relationships between people, places, and the planet;
The ways we can use our multihyphenate identities to strengthen our projects and their impact; and
About our professional responsibility as practitioners to advocate for ourselves, our field, and changes to the systems which impact our work.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
Embedding Advocacy into Your Practice by Jeff M. Poulin (Teaching Artists Guild)
Making Change: Teaching Artists and Their Role in Shaping a Better World by Eric Booth
ABOUT GOWRI SAVOOR
Gowri Savoor is a visual-teaching artist whose practice includes sculpture, illustration, and writing. Born in England, she moved to the US in 2007. Savoor has been a teaching artist for over 20 years and has partnered with multiple organizations in the UK and across the US, including Community Engagement Lab (VT), Lincoln Center Education (NY), The Learning Alliance (FL), and ITAC—the International Teaching Artist Collaborative. Savoor is the instigator of A River of Light, a movement committed to bringing art to the community through participatory art events, installations, and lantern parades. She is also the co-founder of Teaching Artists Connect, an organization providing creative and inspiring professional development workshops for teaching artists and educators in North Carolina and beyond. When she isn’t making, teaching, or dreaming about art, she can be found walking through the woods with a little red dog.
This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk; the executive producer is Jeff M. Poulin. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s webpage and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
This is why I changed the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff. Oh, Hola. Hola,
Madeleine McGirk 00:09
Soy Carla. It's Rachel here. What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf. And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:14
Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started.
Madeleine McGirk 00:36
Hi, everyone, and welcome to this episode of The Why change podcast I am Matlin. I'm coming to you from Edinburgh in Scotland, and I am joined today by Jeff pill. And Hi, Jeff.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:47
Hey, Madeline, it is good to see you. I'm coming to you today from my home in Western Maryland, just outside of Washington DC in the United States. What's going on with you? What's going on in your world?
Madeleine McGirk 01:01
You know, so much. I feel like every time we do this, we are in the middle of about 50 different projects, right. But at the moment, we are wrapping up around three of the Eden Project with ITAC, which has just been such a joy. And I think last time I spoke to you, I was reading through the report. And now I have all of that lovely data and impact research in front of me. And I am starting to think about how to use this and channel it towards advocacy for teaching artists and to sort of proof in the pudding what we do and get really loud about the kind of things that can happen in communities when you bring teaching artists in. So pretty cool stuff.
Jeff M. Poulin 01:42
Yeah, that's fantastic. As our listeners probably know, I love advocacy, I did that work for a really long time. And that translation of our work into advocacy for what I might call systems change, you know, is really, really essential in our work, I'm actually sort of in the same boat, I've been really flexing my multi hyphenate muscles in delivering programming, particularly in the back to school time, or preparing for the back to school time in the next few weeks for teachers and schools in the US. But out of that, you know, abstracting some of these models that can inform the way that we design PD that we design arts integrated learning experiences that we design, those systems that support teaching artists, support community arts organizations, support schools, educators, school leaders, and more. And you know, it's really interesting, because I don't know that a lot of people would consider that advocacy. But that's certainly a component of it. Actually, you know, part of this is mashing together like three or four models to figure out what is sort of some strong practice and taking that strong practice to those decision makers, like funders, or policymakers or those who are charged with those big broad systems that can stifle our work, or really enhance our work and, and talk to them about it, which I don't think is any different than than what you were talking about with the learnings from this year long. Opera Teaching Artist engagement.
Madeleine McGirk 03:17
Right? It was, I'm so glad you said that because I think people think advocacy and they think advocating at a top level to lots of sort of hidden threats in Scotland of people with lots of money, or lots of power and status. And that's certainly one part of it. But it doesn't work if you're if the people you're advocating for aren't there with you and forming what needs said and how it needs said and what parts you want to highlight and how you want to be ready for that spotlight when it comes. And so I think yes, it needs to be done at every single level so that it's a really solid thing that you're pushing through and not really, wholly and, you know, fragmented. Bit. Yes. I mean, this for us was a real pilot. It was an experiment. I think I've probably talked on the podcast before about it. So I won't go crazy with the details. But we partnered with Joyce DiDonato, who's an opera superstar on her tour. And our goal was to pilot and prove the way teaching artists and community engagement can be built into fine arts tours to make community impact, not as an add on and not as an additional thing that sounds nice, but isn't super impactful, but is a core component of what the the arts tour seeks to do. And Joyce is such a good partner in that because she shares that mission and their goal for impact. And so it was kind of this the right meeting of the right people at the right time. And now we're more than a year in and yeah, the results are looking pretty good. So I'm feeling happy and I will be sharing all of our Social Media Minute Emily to make it public.
Jeff M. Poulin 04:54
Well, that's so exciting. And I think that, you know, a key component of that advocacy is the storytelling we No doubt has happened through the Eden Project. And it's something that we as teaching artists and other education and cultural professionals have, as our greatest strength is the ability to tell stories, particularly through our artistic mediums. So I'm super excited for the interview that you did this week. So tell us a little bit about who you talk to, because I think their work really ties into this big theme that we've just identified.
Madeleine McGirk 05:25
Right? Absolutely, totally the environmental theme, the storytelling theme. So the interview this week was absolutely fabulous, Gary severe, who I work with, full disclosure, and I chatted a little bit about that work in the interview. But is someone I've known for quite a long time now, actually, but never sat down and had the conversation with about specifically, how did you get into this? What is your core? What is your driving force and your history? And so we dig into a little bit of that in the interview. And I'm just really excited to be able to share that with everyone. So I think without much further ado, shall we jump over and have a listen? Let's do it. Hello, Hi, Gary. Welcome. And thank you for being here to talk to me for the Why change podcast, I am so pleased to be able to talk to you right now, and interview you and just hear more about your work. So to give a little background for people listening before we jump right in. And Gary and I work together with attack. I think we first met in 2018, at The New York Conference. And I've just been very aware of what you've been up to ever since. And I was so happy when you joined the team last year. And we got to hang out a bit at tech six in Oslo. So I feel like we are very in touch pretty regularly as a disclaimer for people listening. And but to get started, could you tell people listening a little bit about yourself where you are in the world right now and the work that you primarily do?
Gowri Savoor 07:09
Of course, I'd love to. So I'm Gary savour. I am a visual teaching artist. And I've been doing this work for over 20 years. I now live in Cary, in North Carolina in the middle of the state. But I spent the last 15 years in Vermont. And before that, in England, where I was born in the Midlands, and I spent most of my life, I see myself as an artist first, even though I'm a teaching artist by trade. Now, in terms of my artwork, I build sculpture. And I'm obsessed with mapping and mapping systems. I also do illustration. And more recently, I've been really focused on writing, especially for children. And my heart's passion project is tiny hero tales, where I retreat to a magical fantasy land that gave me so much joy and escapism as a child. And so now I write and illustrate for middle grade, that's children aged eight to 12. And grew up to believe in magic. So that's my artwork. And in terms of my teaching practice, I've worked in K through 12 education for many years and done countless residencies. I'm really not sure how many, particularly with arts integration, which I'm very fond of. But my teaching artist's joy is working with communities. I run an organization called a river of light that I run with my husband and sculptor Angela Arnold. And we go into communities and teach community members how to build three dimensional lantern structures, and host their own lantern parades. And this is from pre k up to 100 years old. And artists also do professional development sessions for teachers so they can take that work into their own schools. And it's really profoundly beautiful and moving work. And I feel really lucky that I've been able to do that with a modicum of success in every place that I've lived. And in addition to that, as you mentioned, ITAC impacts climate managed project managers. And I managed to commission artists' projects and support impact measurement. And I was the co author for the teaching artists three for social impact course, with Eric booth. And if you haven't had a chance to look at that it's a really amazing and free resource for teaching artists across the globe. And it sits on the cadenza platform. And while I'm not doing all of that, co-founder of teaching artists connect, and we're an organization offering professional development workshops to educators and teaching artists, especially those at the beginning of their careers. I do this work with my business partner, Heather Bryce, who's a dance Teaching Artist. It's incredibly rewarding work, to support teaching artists to find a pathway to their career in touch teaching artistry.
Madeleine McGirk 10:09
That is so funny as you were to list like five lifetimes of work and then go. And when I'm not doing all of that I co-founded an organization. What further breaks? You've mentioned Bob, tons of stuff. But there are a few sort of common threads that extend like you mentioned, professional development was one escapism, and community building. And those seem like some of the key issues, topics that your work addresses. Could you maybe like, well, if I've missed any name, those but also give an example of how you use our in one of those spaces to to achieve that specific thing.
Gowri Savoor 10:54
Yeah. So I really love thinking about this, because I do have issues around which I build my work and those experiences. And those are the areas that I'm most passionate about. So my first passion really is a deep love for the environment and environmental protections, which is why doing this work for ITAC. It's so important to me. So much of my work in terms of teaching is around building empathy and compassion for the natural world. And really focusing on the interconnectedness between people, place and time and understanding how we can break down those barriers that we've created. If we can develop an emotional relationship with someone or something, our instinct is naturally to protect it. So for one example of this, I did an arts integrated residency with third graders, where we learned about how water affects communities due to climate change. And we designed water hazard mitigation devices, and then built a model village of the future that was powered solely by renewable energy. So that's one example of how that kind of entered art and the issue met face to face. Another issue that's really important to me personally, is that idea of finding home and creating a sense of belonging. Perhaps it's from my own background, I'm a South Indian. But I was born in England, and now I live in the United States. So that idea of home is always at the front of my mind, what does it mean? How do we find it? A part of the way that that's manifested in my work has been to work with refugee groups or communities in my hometown of Manchester where I lived before I moved to the US. And we might have made a site deck or for a global music festival, or we created rangolis. Together. Rangoli is very similar to mandalas, where they're temporary artworks that are created from colored sand and rice. The beauty of it is they require no language, and there's minimum instruction, but they're very mindful and grounding practices. And the third issue that's really at the front of my mind is Building Community Through lantern. Building. I have worked with dozens of communities in England and across Vermont, and now in North Carolina, bringing people together through the arts, and creating I see as a level playing field to experience joy, and really creating a genuine sense of magic through and connecting with our public spaces as well. One of my favorite Lantern Parade events was when a fifth grade class illustrated the surface of their handmade lanterns with maps that they had drawn from their past, present and future lives. And then they walked with their families and their lanterns into this into a forest where there was a bonfire and music. And it was such a rite of passage for them, as they were moving from elementary into middle school and into the next phase of their lives. And then once they were there, they tossed like their secret hopes and dreams into the fire and wrote poems and the village whole village celebrated them with a community potluck. And that kind of emotion, that kind of experience is so emotional, they're never going to forget that. So really, we're bringing the issue to the art and
Madeleine McGirk 14:24
and so you talk so thinking again about the social issues then you mentioned a few climate, hormones and belonging community. But in the center of all of them was empathy and relationship building. And so if you take empathy or relationship building as a starting point, if that's like the core core thing that you want to explore, how did you come to decide on those areas? So you mentioned a little bit about the home and belonging, and your history and your geography and location. How did you come to the other two? What brought you to claim it, what brought you to community and peacebuilding?
Gowri Savoor 15:07
Yeah, so that they are all issues that I care about personally in my life. So when I'm able to bring that to my work, I can really bring my authentic self to the work and find that natural spark of energy that's then passed on to the participants I'm working with. So if I care about the work, in a really genuine sense, I can bring that energy. And the participants feel that too. And the energy in the room is just, it's just incredible. Sometimes I have to address topics that are new to me, especially with working in schools. But I love that because it allows me to embrace a whole new way of thinking, it's a really fun challenge to learn about something completely new, to do the research, to speak with people, and just to come to the experience as a learner.
Madeleine McGirk 16:01
And yet, just to not to put you on the spot too much. But can you give an example of something new that you came to where you were like, Oh, my God, I do not understand this. But let me try.
Gowri Savoor 16:11
Yeah, a lot. That was, I was thinking about some of the projects that I've done. A very potent project for me was an arts integrated residency with high school in Montpelier, Vermont, where we did these projects around the wall. And it was a very ambitious project. And we're integrating three different subjects: English, biology, history, and art. And I realized very quickly that I didn't know a lot about the walls that exist in our lives, all around the world. And the way that artists use walls to convey messages and thinking about the messages on the Berlin Wall, and thinking about the walls in Palestine, and then reflecting those back and how we build walls in ourselves. In thinking about integrating the English subject, we were looking at the Harlem Renaissance, and how artists use their art to break down barriers and also kind of write messages in the work too. So it was a new learning experience for me, I'd known a little bit. But I was able to really kind of go into this project with the mind of a researcher. And I love that because it just sort of allows for a bit of humility there, as well, when you're learning alongside your students.
Madeleine McGirk 17:32
Definitely, I couldn't agree more. I think one of the best experiences I've had, as a sort of grown up has been being a beginner at things again, especially after I worked in school so much, because you forget how frustrating it is or how embarrassing or awkward it feels to know nothing about a subject and then have someone try and relate to you. And I think as adults, it's something we need to remember what that actually feels like.
Gowri Savoor 17:58
So right, I really embrace that beginner's mind, because we don't get that opportunity very often to do that. So sometimes, when I have a challenge of doing a workshop with a new group of people or a new organization, I'll deliberately pick something that I've never done before. And I don't rely on a past lesson plan or a past schedule, and I will come up with something completely different that allows me to try a new art form as well. And that beginner's mind is just so rich, and full of energy,
Madeleine McGirk 18:29
While thinking of beginnings, that's a nice segue to the question I was going to ask you next, which is, how did you get started in this? What has the journey looked like for you? I think it's like a high finit career. That's what they call it in the US, right? Like, artists slash this slash that. So take us step by step through your career, if you would, and just share with us what that's looked like,
Gowri Savoor 18:53
Oh, it is the most unconventional. along the winding road. I worked as a graphic designer . After school, I did product design, graphic design and packaging. I always had grown up with the belief and my family members told me it's really important that you get a regular income with a real job. And so I did that, you know, it's like, oh, it's not going to help you. And I realized that they were wrong. After a long time, working the nine to five and following my heart was more important. And so just to protect myself and my health, I realized I needed to go back to my art, and to be close to art and the way that I imagined that might happen was to work as a volunteer. And to shadow community artists, as we're known in England are not known as teaching artists. And so I worked as a volunteer for several years in museums and galleries and used to just help out at workshops. And then one day, I had the opportunity to facilitate a workshop because the instructor had called in sick. And it was like a summer camp. Right. And it was such a thrill. I had not realized that there was this, this thing that I could do with confidence. And it was so very satisfying. Five discovering that joy and energy of making a connection through art through my art. And after that, I started to get in contact with different community arts organizations. In England at that time, we had a lot of community arts organizations, and they served their own constituents. And so it was a small number of constituents with a small arts organization. And I worked with street theater companies, as a community artist of workshops in all kinds of settings, in prisons, in hospitals and after school clubs. And then I turned to project management. But the whole time, my art practice has always been central to everything. In 2006, I left England to do a month-long residency at the Vermont Studio Center. It's an international artists residency program in Johnson, Vermont. And then my life changed forever. I was meant to go for a month, but I fell in love, uprooted my life and moved permanently to Vermont and got married. And after working there for a couple of years, I realized that I needed to go back to teaching art. And I literally started my teaching artists life again, and had to do cold calling and new networking. And I had a few offerings that I felt confidence in promoting. But starting again, from scratch, it was like a second life. And then, you know, works. Things started to happen. I started to get residencies in schools. And then I felt that I had the confidence to move forward after that.
Madeleine McGirk 22:05
Wow, I did not know you move To Vermont for a month and then just stayed. So that is
Gowri Savoor 22:11
Well, I had to go back and forth a few times. But later on in 2007. I came back and got married and was very happy. Yeah,
Madeleine McGirk 22:23
That's amazing. Okay, and so the next question is going to be tricky because of how much stuff you've actually done. What if you had to pick one project that you've been involved in, that you're especially proud of? What would that be? What is it that makes you specifically proud of it?
Gowri Savoor 22:43
Hmm, it was hard, because there have been a lot of great projects with amazing partners, but I think it would have to be a water breeze river of light lands in Parade. When I started up in my second life with command, I had actually said to myself, I'm never going to make another LANSON as long as I've made so many lands and spent communities with hundreds of people, huge Lantern Parade, just lit up the streets. And I needed something different. But I realized after moving into the month that there was very little happening in the way of events at nighttime that were free for families where they could bring their art and participate. And they themselves were the spectacle, you're not paying somebody else to come in and perform for you. You are part of the experience. And it's incredibly empowering. And so I tried to find a partner. So we need to do a Lantern Parade. It took me two years to find a partner. And for someone to see the potential in an event like this, but finally I met that your primary school art teacher mk mondly. I had done a rangoli residency with her school the year before. And she said, Yeah, this sounds good. Let's try it. And so wonderful things started to happen after that in the first year in 2010. We started as a small school residency, so the whole school took part. And I insisted that we host a couple of community workshops to involve the families and the residents of Waterbury, seeing as we were going to be walking through the streets, we wanted everyone to be involved. And that first year's parade, we had so much snow there was a white out it was messy, but it was utterly glorious. The community wanted a parade the next year, but the second year was after tropical storm Irene and we didn't know if it was going to happen. It was doubtful but we went ahead and It was such a cathartic experience, to see people claiming the streets of their hometown and celebrating the community spirit that everyone had dug so deeply into themselves to find in the aftermath of the storm. And after that the parade became a line item on the town budget. And although we hosted free workshops in neighborhood communities, including large scale workshops for artists and professional development workshops for teachers, the score always remained at the heart of that event. So by 2015, it was one of the largest live events in New England. And it was time for Angela and I to let the town steal our own shit. And we went on to some new seeds in new communities. And we were really proud of what we had created there. Some of the students had not known a reality where a community Lantern Parade had not taken place every second Saturday in pre K. For their whole lives through elementary school and into middle school, they've been able to celebrate through art and music and light and that was normal for them. And hopefully, I hope they take that with them through their lives, and they become advocates of the arts, because that is what they demand is the right for everybody. That first parade was 13 years ago and last week the river of light is still going strong.
Madeleine McGirk 26:32
That's quite something shifting the norms of what it looks like to grow up in a place or like what the core community activities are. That is massive. Yeah, I have to ask because lanterns are such a niche medium to work with. Or did you say okay, people need a participatory thing we can do like that's free and collective. And then lanterns came later.
Gowri Savoor 26:59
No lanterns very much came first. When I was living in England, I worked in some street theater companies and pyrotechnics companies who did community arts projects. One of those organizations is called What's the plank. And they were responsible for doing the Commonwealth Games closing ceremony, which took place in Manchester. And I was part of this big team of artists that were making lanterns. After that many communities wanted lantern parades. And we would make lanterns and go and have a big spectacle. And when I moved to Vermont, I wanted to just change that model slightly instead of it being a springing spectacle to you, we created that together. So if there's no participation, there's no event. So it makes everybody accountable. We all feel a sense of investment to
Madeleine McGirk 27:53
Yes, I'd love the idea. And it's such an answer to a specific issue. I always complain about Scotland being so cold, and it's so dark, and there is nothing to do outside collectively, because it's raining or it's cold, or it's freezing. And I think that's why people love the pub so much. And I'm always like, we need some kind of art activity, some kind of community building thing to replace the cafe culture and the gathering outdoors to all these other claimants getting to have. And this is such a beautiful way of doing that. Yeah, it really is.
Gowri Savoor 28:25
Because the lead up to that is where all the juicy energy starts to swell with all the workshops, employing teaching artists that host workshops, and then everybody kind of comes together on the streets one day. And so there's a big buildup and a short event, but it's just so powerful and magical. And then people look forward to the following year.
Madeleine McGirk 28:51
Yeah, I could see that I can really believe and imagine communities just really getting involved in that. So that's an example of a very, very clear example of shifting a norm or building a community or making something where there was nothing before. And so looking ahead to the future as someone who does this type of work, who makes change, who shifts things and moves them along. What is your sense of the most crucial thing that change makers need to be focusing on if you were to make a guess, at where we all ought to be sending our energy or spending our time. So we're ready for whatever is going to come next. What do you think that looks like for you?
Gowri Savoor 29:35
Oh, gosh, well, everything in our lives. Everything is changing so rapidly. It just feels like time is accelerating. I don't think it's just getting older, like the environment is changing so quickly due to climate change, and our educational systems are changing before our eyes and our lives are changing as a result of that too. I feel that acknowledging art has a place in every part. of our lives is crucial, whether it's in communities or in our industries in schools, and prisons and hospitals, and really understanding how the creative process can be transferred to support people in all of these spaces. teaching artists and really good at transferring skills are like problem solvers. And they're innovators and connectors are really good communicators. And they're skilled at creating a new model or paradigm of co-creation and collaboration. So I think really being mindful of making a place for art. But personally, I think if we can focus our energy on climate change, and understand how to address that, that's really where our energy needs to be placed right now.
Madeleine McGirk 30:47
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, well, all of the strands of your work, but particularly the empathy building, to instill protective feelings is such a good one for I mean, obviously, the work you do with attack is saw that but in your own practice of teaching artists that feels like a very ripe way of focusing energy there, which you say,
Gowri Savoor 31:11
yeah, absolutely. I think if you go and try and go straight to science and straight to the issue, you are going to lose people. And then there is a sense of, there's like a climate anxiety that people are feeling. And I think if you go to that place, too soon, you're going to lose people, because it's just too big and overwhelming to think about that if we think about those almost like scaffolded steps, the way we think of as teaching artists, of how we build our relationships with the world, and why is it worth protecting, and then thinking about how we build systems that we can protect it together? Those are small steps that are manageable, and we can achieve them step by step.
Madeleine McGirk 31:55
Yeah, it's amazing, the more I have conversations with people, like you who are doing the change, work, or really just building things, for a better future, the more it just does come back consistently, it seems to the human element, and to the interpersonal relationships, whether that be with each other, or the planet, or whatever topic we're talking about. It feels like that. And imagination and empathy are the things that just come up over and over and over again. So thank you, because I think it's always nice as a reminder that there's a crucial step in making the shifts and the changes.
Gowri Savoor 32:33
You're welcome. I think giving, making space and time for that, is equally important. So thinking ahead of what we need, what we want to achieve. And then going back to step one, and seeing how we can get there.
Madeleine McGirk 32:50
Well, thank you, I feel like I could ask you about 20 million more questions. And then when the columns maybe, but for the sake of time, we always wrap up the interviews with some quickfire questions to try and understand just a little bit more about you, what keeps you going, what makes you tick it and how you manage to keep yourself looked after while doing all this work to make the world a better place. So if you're ready, I'm gonna start going ahead . Is that okay? Oh, yeah. Okay, so the first one who inspires you?
Gowri Savoor 33:27
I know to say my business partner has a Bryce. She is smart and insightful. And we're very different, in that we share the same synergy.
Madeleine McGirk 33:36
Amazing, and what keeps you motivated?
Gowri Savoor 33:40
constantly feeling like I'm on the edge of a breakthrough. carrot and stick?
Madeleine McGirk 33:48
I relate to that one heavily. Okay, where are you most grounded?
Gowri Savoor 33:53
Whenever I'm around trees, walking in woodlands, being in the trees, that's my happy place.
Madeleine McGirk 34:00
And how do you stay focused and shifting
Gowri Savoor 34:03
my activity, so too much of one thing is dire. So always kind of keeping it interesting and just changing up what I'm doing through the day, and maintaining my art practice. So even if it's just 30 minutes a day, or something that sparks my creativity that is vital.
Madeleine McGirk 34:24
And finally, why change?
Gowri Savoor 34:28
Because I can be a better version of myself and keep my life interesting. While I'm doing it.
Madeleine McGirk 34:35
You think thank you very well, that is all of the questions I had. But before we finished I have to check was there anything you wanted to share anything you want to plug or tell people about before we break off?
Gowri Savoor 34:49
I do not. I do not have anything to plug but I do regularly put events up on my kind of social pages. So if anyone's interested in finding out what's happening, that's a good place to work.
Madeleine McGirk 35:00
Amazing. Okay, so Gary's website and socials will all be in the show notes. If you want to find out more about the work that he's doing, please go and visit those who share, like, subscribe, all that jazz and supporting each other is how we get loud and make an impact. So please encourage everyone to go and do that. So with that being said, Gary, thank you so much, you were so busy, and I appreciate you taking the time to share with all of us. So thanks so much for chatting with me.
Gowri Savoor 35:27
Thank you
Madeleine McGirk 35:37
so you can see why I was super excited to interview Gary, right? She's like, Ah, she's a rock star.
Jeff M. Poulin 35:45
Absolutely, I totally agree. And, you know, with your full disclosure of working with galleries now we've sort of known each other on and off through different circles of teaching artists in the United States, in New England, in New York City. With the attack, I feel like the three of us were all together, celebrating the successful end of the attack six conference in Oslo. And, you know, I love so much about this, if nothing else, then like the little celebrations of heroes and imaginary worlds just gave me such hope. That project that the gallery works on is called Tiny hero tales. But I, this body of work, and frankly, the approaches the gallery talks about, I think, really just embody what the power of teaching artistry is, and community artistry, I think, as she referenced it in the UK. So I'm actually curious, Medellin, from your perspective, as someone who you know, works with artists, teaches artists every single day, you know, what's sort of your take on this multi hyphenate role? You literally mentioned that terminology, which I think is popular in the US, but the multi-hyphenate role of teaching artists in community settings, bringing their whole artists self with their whole educator self and their other interests and aspirations for community impact. Right?
Madeleine McGirk 37:12
And I think that's a really good question, because what you said about Gary having a very specific perspective, I really understood in the interview when I was unpicking it with her because she approaches things from us with just a slightly different terminology or perspective than a lot of people I interview. And by that, I mean, when I asked her about empathy building, for example, one thing she talked about was helping people build a relationship, a personal relationship to nature, for example, as a way of encouraging people to feel compelled to protect it. And I think that the idea of wanting people to protect nature is, you know, really consistent all the time. But usually people describe how they do that as storytelling, or miss building, or, you know, there's all these different ways that we teach artists to work with communities, or whoever to build that thinking. But what Gary was talking about was personal relationship building, with nature. And I think that's such an interesting nuance of how she described doing that work. And something that's super applicable to a lot of things, and at its core is empathy still, but just that description was so different to what I normally hear that it really struck me
Jeff M. Poulin 38:38
100%. And I think that the pairing that I pulled out was around empathy, plus community building. And I think that community building doesn't necessarily mean, you know, with your direct next door neighbor, you know, the person, the people with whom you share space, but it could be, you know, building communal relationships with abstract things like nature, like physical places, with different elements of yourself. And I think that what I wrote down in my notes was a nice alliteration around building those relationships with people, with places and with the planet. And I think that that is something that, you know, really stands out because oftentimes, we understand that empathy is a natural output of those types of relationships and experiences. But we don't often think of the arts as being, you know, a direct pathway to that and I love this role of teaching artists as being those bridges to increase empathy and relationships. And I think we all know that in an increasingly divided world and you know, with more and more tribalism, be it about you know, politics or, or what have you. We need those Relationships, that's an essential component. That's how actual communities are built. That's how the long term changes in the world are fostered through those types of strong communal bonds.
Madeleine McGirk 40:11
Totally and building communal bonds and community. When she talked about the lantern making, I think that was so go read to me because she liked me and loves the spreadsheet, right, super organized super. Here's what we need: an ABC project manager. And so it was funny to me that that is also in a way how she approached some of the community building as in, okay, what's missing, we need something free, we need something for families, we need something you can do in the evening, after school after work, we need something you can do in the dark, because it's a winter, like starting with the problem and then working backwards in a really methodical way. And she brought lantern building from previous projects, but noticing that gap and finding a way to fill it with an artist project. And then using that as the community building tool. I think that is so smart. It's such a slick way to do it. And it's such a gallery way to do it because it's so organized and methodical. And so I love that. And I love the idea that there are no kids growing up in that community who never knew that that wasn't a thing. Yeah, and what a legacy to have left,
Jeff M. Poulin 41:23
I just want to also underscore this sort of, you know, multiple part identity, right that that has been the gallery mentioned, you know, herself of just saying I'm an artist first. But I'm also a project manager, I'm also a community or participatory or teaching artists, and an educator. And I think that being able to sort of translate our code switch between those different roles, is the superpower of teaching artists. I know I've said this before on the podcast, and in lots of other community spaces and writings. But, teaching artists really are superheroes, and that is their superpower, of being able to draw those connections, fill those voids and bridge communities and people and approaches so that we really can reach the type of impact that is there. But one other thing that Gary said at the very beginning that sort of fascinated me and led me down sort of a daydreaming thinking rabbit hole was this idea of, of mapping as being sort of an art form and mapping systems, when we think about that type of change that we want to see. And, you know, at Creative Generation, we actually talk a lot about different arts based research methodologies that, you know, a lot of people and I won't get on my soapbox on this, but a lot of people are in sort of the scientific and research communities don't view art space research as, as valid. And at the end of the day, though, there's a key component to narrative building and storytelling that can be represented in things like experience maps, and, and, and lifetime stories and things that we can illustrate in terms of, of acting them out in theater, or creating movements in dance or creating visualizations in, in the visual arts. And, and I think that, you know, the gallery talking a little bit about that shows that there's some component of this, like really large- scale change that is occurring in these communities. That does come from understanding the systems that were operating in, and as an artist, engaging in those systems, because I think so much. And this actually really ties back into the theme that we were introducing at the very start of this about advocacy is we tend to say, Oh, well, that's not for us, because we think that advocacy for the types of changes that we want to see in the world, be they about education policy, or cultural funding or the environment. That's for other people, and not for the artists in the communities when in fact, I think that there's a multiple pronged approach to this, that we as teaching artists need to be advocates for ourselves that our work is valid and relevant and has impact that we need to advocate for our teaching artists community about the impact of that work and the supports that we need to be able to enable that work. And then lastly, we need to advocate for a sort of justice within our larger systems like environmental policy and housing and food security, you know, name your community sector. And I think that that is a skill that a lot of us have, but don't often name. And there's a real power in naming that and understanding those systems and operating creatively and artistically within those systems that Gary didn't necessarily say, but certainly demonstrated in this interview, and it really left me thinking about that for all of us.
Madeleine McGirk 44:54
That's really interesting, because one thing we're dangerous now, we interviewed our booth a while ago for the podcast because See as this new book, making change, teaching artists and their role in shaping a better world, and that is a big advocacy tool that I'm using and a lot of its members are using right now to try and advocate for teaching artistry. And this last week, we had a book club for teaching artists who read it or want to use it for advocacy, but don't quite know how, or you know, brainstorm together what that could look like. And it is always amazing to me how some of the most creative bald three, like imaginative people can have such a block with certain topics. Because exactly as you said, we don't think they're for us. But then the minute you say, Oh, well, but you do this other thing. It's just like that, then like, then the gates open, and it's like, wow, okay, so we could use it here, here, or here, or that person could totally use us that it's almost giving permission, which is so rarely needed by artists. In some spaces that feel a little far away, I think the minute that you accept that, that is your space. And that is you do have agency, just the same as anyone else in those moments. It's such a powerful tool. So I actually think we should put the book in the show notes, because Gary was also heavily involved in a bit of em, and trying to shape people's advocacy and how they might use them that way. So that's just a fun little tangent, connecting a couple of interviews,
Jeff M. Poulin 46:23
I totally agree. And I would also plug the short course that you all have at that gallery, and Eric co created that on cadenza, and we'll drop that link in the show notes as well, because that's another element that celebrates the power of teaching artists. But B also kind of puts into perspective the role of teaching artists in those big, broader community development conversations, which is advocacy at its core. And I think that that's something that we often forget or need reminding of is that we are the experts at what we do. We are embedded in communities and have that firsthand knowledge of not only the impacts of arts, cultural and creative education, but of just what's happening in the world, on the people in our communities, as community embedded practitioners, that is a component of our daily lives. And I think that, you know, I'm going to go back to some of the work that I did before my work at Creative Generation, for about a decade, working in advocacy, where I have to make the case to teaching artists and other arts educators and supporters that it's our professional responsibility, actually to advocate for the changes that we want to see, because we're the ones that know, I think there's a there's a myth out there that these gatekeepers that are, quote, unquote, gatekeeping, the funding the resources, the policy, the you know, permissions, as you said, that we think we need. It's not that they're malicious, they just don't know any better. And so when we exercise that professional responsibility to tell them what it is that we need, then I think we can really work together to see the changes that we want. I mean, in the United States context, it's been consistent since like the 80s, that nine out of 10 Americans believe that the arts are good in the development of young people, right, that they should be there, that they should be in schools and in community programs. But at the end of the day, it's not that people are trying to cut funding, it's just that they might not understand you know exactly what it goes towards, or they don't understand that, you know, some of the different elements that we need those permissions, right, like, increased professional development time for visiting teaching artists and school based educators, you need that time in order to plan to have those experiences. And those types of policy elements can get in our way, unless we actually tell them that, that's why we need it. And you know, and here's what it should look like, which sort of goes back, I think, to our last conversation about public policy and education reform with Michael Anderson. So I think that there's a definite through line and in some of these dialogues, between Eric booth and Michael Anderson and Gary savor about what is the role of a teaching artist, not only in practice, but also in the broader discourses around pedagogy and policy and all of these types of systems that have to work together so that we can see the impacts of Artspace learning in conversation say
Madeleine McGirk 49:27
about climate. Absolutely. And there's one additional name that I would throw in as a person whose work is tied into this is Sangeeta esperan, who we interviewed way back in season one, I think, who is currently doing an attack innovator project for us around the role of teaching artists in mainstream systems. And she did a think tank about this a couple months ago, and it's not convening a working group and I believe the working group is still open for people to join. And so I would highly recommend having a look at that Think Tank. And if it is something people want to deep dive into more, and there is very much an ongoing strand of work there that would welcome you with open arms. So that's a plug for our listeners, if you want to get involved more.
Jeff M. Poulin 50:14
Well, this conversation just turned into a whole Resource Bank that has some materials for our listeners to get into. But I think maybe we conclude with that call to action or get involved. You know, if this type of work is exciting to you, be it on the hyper practical level, you want to know more about the the tiny Hero Tails project or the river of light organization that gallery has and Post lanterns you know, definitely learn more, but also plug into those networks of teaching artists, be at Eric's book club or others all around the world that are, are moving this field forward together. And I'm also happy to say that a lot of it's free. And you can just simply, you know, plug in and get to work and get to know folks. So I hope that everyone can take that call to action to heart and really be part of this growing movement of teaching artists all around the world that are driving change.
Madeleine McGirk 51:11
Amazing. I will not try to add to that a little, just echo the sentiment. And that being said, thank everyone so much for listening, and we hope to see you next time for the next episode of why change. Thank you everyone.
Jeff M. Poulin 51:26
See you next time. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write to us at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk, the Executive Editor is me, Jeff employment. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is Katie Rainey, this podcast theme music is by distant cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.