In this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Karla and Ashraf discuss their perspectives on navigating work and life. Ashraf shares his interview with Nikki Kirk, a cultural equity practitioner who focuses her work on reframing the role of philanthropy in the cultural sector. Karla and Ashraf break down the throughlines of Nikki’s work through the use of linguistics, community-driven funding, and ‘radical’ approaches to systems change.
In this episode you’ll learn:
About the role of language in framing the purpose of philanthropy;
How communities can drive funding priorities towards goals of equity; and
The ways change can be radical and productive within larger systems.
Some things from the episode:
Why Change? Why Poetry?: Poetry Is The Language Of The People
Making It A Movement, Not A Moment, an analysis of funder perspectives
About Nikki Kirk
Nikki Kirk (she/her) is a cultural equity practitioner who is dedicated to advocating for systemically excluded and institutionally oppressed populations. She has worked across the country centering on youth and leadership development, and supporting local, regional, and national communities. Through her work with organizations like Americans for the Arts, Massachusetts Cultural Council, the Center for Arts-Inspired Learning, and El Sistema USA, she has supported individual and organizational growth. Nikki has diverse experience as a grant manager, facilitator, curriculum developer, program coordinator, project manager, mentor, and advisor. She currently serves as the Director of Community Impact & Investment with the Indy Arts Council, as well as a Project Consultant for the Aspen Institute’s Artist Endowed Foundations Initiative.
Nikki earned a Master’s degree in Arts, Festival, and Cultural Management from Queen Margaret University in Edinburgh, Scotland, where she researched the impact of programming at the intersection of arts and social justice. She received a Bachelor’s degree in Political Linguistics from Pitzer College in southern California, where she affirmed her interests in and the significance of language and identity, human rights, and cross-cultural understanding.
This episode was produced by Ashraf Hasham. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode, episode transcripts, and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s web page and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC.
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
This is why I changed the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera 00:08
Oh, Hola. Hola, soy Carla. It 's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham 00:11
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:13
And I'm Madeline. Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started.
Karla Estela Rivera 00:37
Welcome to the Why change podcast everybody. My name is Karla Estela Rivera, and I am here with my friend Ashraf. Ashraf, how are you today?
Ashraf Hasham 00:49
What's up? Karla? Good to hear your voice?
Karla Estela Rivera 00:53
I haven't seen it in a long time no see, it is summertime in the United States. I'm very excited about that. We are in June. What have you been up to lately?
Ashraf Hasham 01:06
Oh, man, it's all wedding planning all the time over here in this household. It's going, it's gonna be really exciting. We're Labor Day weekend, looking forward to it. And it is less than 100 days away. So things are shifted to a double digit mountain. Wild. I know. We're excited to have you and Jeff out in Seattle and celebrate, it's going to be so awesome. Maybe we'll do a little recording for the folks. That's hilarious.
Karla Estela Rivera 01:37
Yeah, you know, I'm thinking a lot about, well, Chicago public schools just let out on Wednesday. So my child is in the other room. And they are resting as, as they should, as every child who has put in and teacher has put in a long year should but also thinking about programming, thinking about what kind of things we can get into, you know, they want theater camp, they want, you know, art classes, they want this and so much of that, of course, are things that people can pay for. But you know, there's also loads of free programming, and yeah, especially in Chicago. 100% and, you know, arts nonprofits, across the city and across the state, get critical funding to be able to provide for your pay what you can programming, you know, for communities that may not have the economic access, or the geographic access, right? And so, you know, I'm a product of municipal and philanthropic investments in the arts, he wouldn't get me in the version that I am today because of that. So that made me super excited to listen to your conversation with Nicky Kirk. How was that conversation with you? No. Yeah,
Ashraf Hasham 03:07
It was super good. Yeah. Nikki is awesome. She, as you'll find out in this episode, has a beautiful history of getting into this work. And being in it for the reasons that I think you and I are both in it to, it's great to also get to know somebody who has shared history, you know, in terms of the organizations and the people and the folks along the way that that I also had and I know, Jeff has and other folks, I mean, she went to Edinburgh for, for grad school, you know, we got an outline here who's who's out there. So it was cool to sort of hear her history and be like, Oh my God, there's so much in common. I feel like I should have known you forever. I met her while I was serving on the Indian Arts Council's organizational funding panel a few months ago actually. And it was a great experience. And I was like throughout the conversation I was like or that experience I said this is going to be an awesome interview for the Why change podcast at some point. Because this here Nikki is a funder of color in this community where she is putting herself in she's not from the community she came to this work clinic this specific job and she moved to Indianapolis for it so I was really curious to get to know her Why should how and why she got into funding and what she's trying to do there and yeah, I guess we'll listen to it in just a sec anything else you want to say before we move into the episode?
Karla Estela Rivera 04:41
Not oh, let's jump in
Ashraf Hasham 04:52
Hello, why change the community? It's my pleasure to introduce you to Nikki Kirk. Nikki is a leadership development and cultural equity practitioner who's dedicated to advocating, excuse me, for systematically excluded and institutionally oppressed populations. Through her work with organizations like Americans for the Arts, the Center for Arts inspired learning and El Sistema, USA. She has supported individual and organizational growth in the areas of youth and leadership development. Nikki has a background in designing restructuring and transitioning programs both in person and in virtual spaces. She has diverse experience to facilitate her Curriculum Developer Program Coordinator, project manager, mentor, advisor, and designer and manager of internships and fellowship programs specifically for leaders of color. Nikki currently is the Director of Community Investment within the Arts Council where she manages grant making investments for artists and arts organizations. She centers her work in expanding equitable investment and strengths and strengthens the overall impact of thriving arts communities. She's also the project consultant for Aspen Institute's artist endowed foundations initiative, which I'm excited to talk about a little bit later too. Nikki earned a master's degree in the arts festival and Cultural Management from Queen Margaret University in Edinburgh, Scotland, where she researched the impact of programming at the intersection of arts and social justice. She also received a bachelor's degree in Political linguistics from Pitzer College in Southern California, where she affirmed her interests in and the significance of language and identity through human rights and cross cultural understanding. Hello, Nikki. All right. So good to have you. So happy to be here. We just learned a little bit about you through your bio. But tell us more about your origin story, how you got to where you are today, the role of arts education and creative youth development in your come up and anything else you want to share with us?
Nikki Kirk 06:44
Sure, yeah. So I'm originally from Philadelphia. So my connection to the arts is mostly embedded in my general upbringing, my mom's a teacher. So, you know, I was privileged enough to be part of a private Quaker school in Philadelphia, or the suburbs of and, you know, given that time, and continuing on, everybody seems to be affected by arts funding being cut in schools constantly. But thankfully, my school never really dealt with that, at least not on the face value that the children saw. So I was basically thrown in, unable to be a part of any activity I wanted to thankfully. So I did a lot of theater and vocal groups. I was a part of the dance team. So all of the performing arts programming really is what stuck with me, you know, back back then we didn't really call it creative youth development. Not that I'm so old, or anything, but, you know, language changes. And so back then it was really about arts for art's sake. And so, you know, I think the connection that I had to it that I've seen is the same as when we call it creative youth development today. But, you know, it helps me to connect to something to a community, it helps me build my confidence, learn skills, like, you know, the memorization of lines, and understanding cues and all that helps me kind of build into the organized person that I am today. And I think that the most impactful part for me was probably the socio-emotional learning aspect of things. You know, being in those creative spaces, helping me sort through emotions and expressing myself in different ways, escaping into characters and kind of evolving and understanding situations. So yeah, I think arts education had a really strong impact on me. Not that I ever thought I would make a career this way. Even though as a kid, I really dreamed about being on Broadway. But never actually thought that would be realistic. So being on the kind of administrative side of that was never really something that crossed my mind until I got there.
Ashraf Hasham 09:01
Yeah, oh, my god, same big time in terms of at least wanting to be around the arts, as a kid growing up in arts programs, but not necessarily knowing what that would mean. Because I also didn't think I'd be on Broadway either.
Nikki Kirk 09:16
I mean, who, you know, I never thought I would be good enough. And I'm not. But being able to see those performances, both on and off etc. You know, at this stage, I really connect to the passion that people have, anytime I see a performance. So dance and theater specifically are the ones that just, I'm at the edge of my seat.
Ashraf Hasham 09:43
I love it. Are you still practicing in the art forms today? Keeping yourself creatively? Rich.
Nikki Kirk 09:49
I do a lot of attending. Now I'm a wonderful patron. I have done dance every now and again. When I can, but mostly I'm working to kind of instill that same love and my kid. So we are taking a visual arts class right now. Which was never my strength back then. So it's fun to do it at a two year old level.
Ashraf Hasham 10:19
Oh, that's so awesome. What? What is something exciting that you want to see lately? As an arts goer? Oh, that's
Nikki Kirk 10:29
a good question. Um, the most recent thing I saw was a clue at the end of the Indiana Repertory Theater. And the way that they did it, I've never seen the movie and didn't even know it was a show. So see, it was just really fun. It was fun and engaging. And you could hear the audience laughing throughout. So I would recommend that to anybody that's never seen that show because it's a really exciting one.
Ashraf Hasham 10:57
I love it when the audience actually gets Voysey and starts hootin and hollerin. That's super fun. I want to show this weekend called Lydia and the troll here in Seattle. And it felt like the audience could have been more hooting and hollering. It was just me and my partner, just doing most of the Whoo. And yeah,
Nikki Kirk 11:19
I've been to predominantly black theaters. And that's, like, ingrained in it like the entire audience is right there with you. But in predominantly white institutions, you don't really hear a lot of that all the time. So it was really fun to be at that show and see that connectivity there.
Ashraf Hasham 11:36
Yes, absolutely. So you're in Indiana, now, Indianapolis, and you're there in this philanthropic funding space. Tell us about how you move through the sector in you know, starting from a place of not not going to the performance route, right. But staying in the sort of the other side of it, what I used to call the business side of the arts.
Nikki Kirk 12:01
That's how I explained it to my parents anyway, that's
Ashraf Hasham 12:04
my parents. True. So true. Do we call it that now, I said, I used to call it that. I don't really call it that anymore.
Nikki Kirk 12:11
I still might. Because you know, every time you try to explain arts management, it just never really quite connects.
Ashraf Hasham 12:18
So tell us about how you got into arts management or its leadership and how you've heard it started to disrupt racial equity and larger movements.
Nikki Kirk 12:27
Yeah, absolutely. So I started out, not in the sector, not thinking that I could be in the sector, not really thinking about it as a profession. And then there was a period of time where I was just job hunting, I was trying to leave, I was living in San Francisco at the time. And I was trying to leave San Francisco. And I went either of two different routes, one was in the arts, in higher education at Berklee College of music, and one would have taken me and that was in Boston, and the other one would have taken me to DC in the realm of the sports industry. And I spent an entire summer kind of going back and forth to each of the cities and connected with Boston more. So I went, I went that route. And then once I got into that space, and Berkeley is, if you know, it's higher education, but it's, you know, creating musicians as well as music administrators, etc. Pretty much everybody that works and teaches there is a musician, myself not included. So, you know, I got to see a different side of things there. And I thought about, you know, what does it mean to really create a world and a career in this, this space. So after Berkeley, I did a brief stint with the Massachusetts Cultural Council, which is state cultural, government, arts funding. And then I went off to grad school, and did graduate school in arts festival and cultural management and really kind of honed in on where in the arts, I wanted to find myself. And that's, again at that intersection of, of arts programming social justice. And so as I came back to the US, after grad school, I kind of hopped into different spaces, trying to do a little bit of trial and error and figure out, you know, what would fit what works. And so, I mean, you, you read my bio, I've been to a few different places. And landed, landed here very intentionally. You know, after being a part of so many nonprofits over the years, I think, I got into this space of really wanting to contribute to how philanthropy and grantmaking operates. You know, and so, I think I've been really excited about coming to the indie Arts Council. Law and, and figuring out how to really change, change the perception of grant making and the perception of, of the Arts Council and how it connects to artists and arts organizations. You know, I think you the, the overarching goal of philanthropy is, is a means to address systemic inequity. Right. And so it only makes sense that we really want to center equity in that conversation. And I think that's that sector wide, both arts, philanthropy as well as philanthropy generally. And I think, you know, we as funders really exist to support the work and not define it. And, and so we need to kind of push towards how we do how we get out of our own way? How do we, how do we let those in the community do the work? Be the priority? Have the work as a priority, have the community as the priority? How do we shift that way? And so that's been a lot of the focus in my, in my work currently.
Ashraf Hasham 16:14
Wow. So how do you make it more equity driven? How do you make this philanthropy arts funding work more community led? And how have you found ways to do that?
Nikki Kirk 16:24
Yeah, I mean, so the endurance Council has done some really good work, really great work in shifting and being specific about addressing racial inequity. And that started way before me, I've been here over a year now, but it started, you know, 10 or so years ago, for them. Which is, which is really great. And my boss, who is now retired, you know, I credit him with a lot of that work. You know, and since I've been there, I think I focused on it. You know, I don't want to listen to her, because I feel like that's kind of a general go to, but the listening tour goes directly into that feedback. So the Arts Council has received a lot of feedback over the years, community feedback through a variety of different mechanisms. And so I think my first start was to dive into all of those different surveys and evaluations and assessments that they've done over the years. To really get a sense of where the needs were, what my baseline was in starting. So you know, in this past year, I've transitioned us to a new grip management system to address lots of feedback from from applicants who are struggling to even apply to our programs, I worked to advocate for shift in eligibility criteria for one of our larger grant programs, to expand the reach of who we were connecting with, and that helps increase our applicant pool by about a third. You know, I've been really intentional about who we bring in as grant panelist to ensure that the folks that are advising on their award decisions, bring diverse perspectives and understand the Arts Council's commitment to racial equity, the city's commitment to racial equity. You know, and for that specific program, we saw that expanding access to our program had a direct impact, you know, we saw over half, about 63% of the awards went to artists and arts administrators of color. You know, and similarly, for our organizational grants, you know, we've deliberately sought out organizations led by in serving people of color to help build or grow an existing relationship and make sure folks knew that we wanted to be a true partner and to try to get a sense from them of what, what does that look like for them. And that's an ongoing process. You know, we just welcome seven new grantee partners that are people of color centered, and you know, and that's a general operating support program. So we're working to make cracks in the system. But you know, as we kind of go forth, and again, I've had a small tenure so far. So it's really about getting continuous feedback and acting on that feedback directly to make those changes.
Ashraf Hasham 19:23
That's incredible. I love hearing that too, from somebody who, like me, works in the public sector, or at least in the public realm. And I was super happy to have been one of those panelists who came in for one of the organizational funding programs that y'all have. So yeah, in the Arts Council, killing it. A great experience for me as a grantee, as a panelist reviewing like 40 Something applications learn so much more about Indianapolis and in the arts community in the scene, tons of early music organizing Asians wouldn't have known that there's a Presidential Museum there also didn't know that right? So that's super cool. And regards to your earlier answer about theater and dance and performance, go to see all those I can tell. It's like a really rich community of tons of amazing performances and performers and artists. And, and the work you're doing is admirable, for a lot of reasons. First, the fact that it started 10 years ago, moving towards this space, the fact that you're able to step in, take this huge foundation of eval and assessments and all the things that allow you to listen and take the feedback from the community to have a baseline, that's, that's really incredible. And the new grants management system is also nothing to Shake your tail at, we have a new one here at the City of Seattle, it's tough. Community is has a ton of feedback for us on those kinds of things, too. And as well, they should, but I love that it's an incremental shift towards access.
Nikki Kirk 21:02
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I think it was for our shifts, specifically with the grant management system, like it's, it's been, it was definitely difficult to get to that space. But, you know, the aftermath, like, yeah, there's, there's hiccups and bumps that have come into play. But a lot of the feedback that we're hearing so far is really positive, that this is a more user friendly experience, that they actually feel like, you know, it's more open and available to them. So, I think, you know, yes, we have things and kinks to work out. But ultimately, you know, we're moving in the right direction.
Ashraf Hasham 21:48
Yeah. And that that will take time for you to really fully feel and fully, fully be able to express to the stakeholders and communicate that success further out. Absolutely. Speaking of that, that's something that's full of tension, right? Like, like something that takes time to get from the idea that concept to the to the best state or the most ideal state of the thing and Grants Manager systems a great example of that, but one other tensions from your values based lens that you bring to this work and let your and that you're benefiting an institution that already has been in the space of values based, equity driven, organizational movement, like how do you feel the tension from your value based lens, to where the institutions at maybe it's the same space? Maybe it's a little bit further along, maybe it's a little bit less along? And then just the general theory, feeling of bureaucracy that comes with a public issue organization, right, in the Arts Council isn't itself a public? Agency, but I'll let you explain all that. Let me know what you think. Tell me about potential.
Nikki Kirk 22:54
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think so. So the Arts Council itself is an intermediary agency. So we were created by the city of Indianapolis back in 1987. But we were created intentionally to not be a city agency. So that there is less red tape, essentially, for us to get things done and get things moving in, in order to support the arts community. So we are a nonprofit agency, but we're intermediary. So we get funding from the city we get funding from from other private foundations for a variety of different programs. But yeah, I think what you're saying is too true and right on, you know, bureaucracy has never brought me joy. You know, I think there's always tension and, and something to, to kind of come up against, and I think that kind of shows itself in, in slower paced progress, right. But progress is happening. It's just, it's just taking more time than maybe we'd like it to, you know, I think I found myself, you know, often just kind of ready to dive in and ask the big questions, and get to the root of the problem so that we can really work to address it and take direct action. And I think about being in space generally. In all institutions, not necessarily just funding but you know, I think there's a lot of well, we need to wait and ask these people we need to get approvals for this, you know, now's not the right time, but we'll look for it, you know, down the road, etc. And sometimes that can feel really disheartening. Especially for people like me that don't love that. Let's wait and see. approach. And so I think, you know, part of that stems from the nonprofit structure or governmental restrictions. Part of that is generally operating in a capitalistic system. Um, and part of that is intergenerational differences within the workplace itself. You know, and so I think that, that balance that that I've found is always kind of reverting back to the question why, um, you know, anytime I feel, you know, brick walls limitations being introduced, or or anytime I'm viewing, observing, or getting direct feedback about barriers, issues, etc, you know, I think about what are the small ways that that I have under my control to take the direct action? What improvements can I make within my own control? And then what steps do I need to take to kind of get to that larger goal to make headway there? You know, I think, art of being in this space, and being in a public space, you know, being a public servant in a civic space, being a part of a public institution, or public service, organization, nonprofits are definitely in this space. You know, I think the point is that you have to listen to your communities, you have to listen to the public, to the communities that you're serving. And so most often, if you start with the vulnerable, most vulnerable populations, get an understanding of their needs that can help inform how to serve generally, you know, sort of the curb effect, you know, and so I think the balance for me comes in doing as much as I can, within my own capacity within my own mental health and well being recognizing my own boundaries. But then finding ways to reconcile the racks and kind of focus on what I can change, while then making systematic plans to kind of address those more complicated tensions.
Ashraf Hasham 26:52
I love that, yes, this is how we make change. You did such a good job of breaking that down, and shit takes time. Things take time. I love that you bring it back to yourself. Why? As to how it gets to where it needs to go? And what are some ways that you've been able to satisfy the verb your desires to move things forward, while also knowing that these things take years sometimes to come into effect?
Nikki Kirk 27:21
Yeah. You know, I think I, thankfully, at this stage in my career, I am at a place where I have agency doesn't feel good. It does. It does feel good. You know, I think throughout my career, as I've kind of worked through up and down at different levels, I think, you know, I think I was hitting my head against that brick wall more and more often than I liked. And I think that probably is why many people have called me challenging in my career, because I push against issues. And I will, I'm channeling. I'm not challenging, but I do challenge. Oh, yeah. Right. And so I think what I've done is once I get to that space of testing those limits and testing those barriers, and seeing how far they will be pushed, then really getting to the heart of, you know, I've done what I can in this space. And now I have to move to a different space. You know, I think once and that's early in my career when my capacity was a lot lower. Yes, I was doing a bunch of work probably far above the scope of many of what I had been hired for. But I think, you know, the autonomy to be able to make decisions was very limited. And thankfully now I'm at a part of my career where there is autonomy. Yes, there's plenty of approvals and things that need to happen still, but the kind of guardrail has shifted to some larger decisions and where they were originally. And so I think it is both helpful for my own peace of mind. But also, you know, having gone through all of the other spaces and meeting those guardrails constantly, I think it showed me my own limitations. It showed me my own kind of perseverance to see you know, where, where I need to get to
Ashraf Hasham 30:00
Beautiful. And perseverance, of course, one of the things arts education teaches you is that being a creative person in the world, it's just a well rounded citizen, right is somebody who persevered and somebody who challenges. I'm sorry that you were called challenging. That sounds like it must have sucked. How many of us have been Rhino? Right? Totally, especially people who listen, this podcast, I'm sure. Late. And I love that you talked about the target of universalism, right? The curb cut effect of starting with the most vulnerable populations. So so, so true. Thank you for inserting that into the conversation as well. Public institutions are tough. I mean, you and I are in the space where we're making changes on policy spaces that are inaccessible to the general public. And so part of our job also turns out to having to explain why things take time and why. And also, in addition to why things take time to get to their ideal state, why we're changing things altogether. Have you gotten any pushback for the changes you've been able to implement? Sounds like your institution, the authorizing environment you're within is one that gives you that autonomy, not only autonomy, but also maybe gives you some backup, when it comes to that kind of stuff.
Nikki Kirk 31:23
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think I think there's, there's always going to be limitations. So like, even if you're in the most supportive of environments, there's always external stakeholders, there's always partners, there's always other issues that kind of come into play, I think, you know, what I've come across recently is, you know, in some of our programs, you know, what is considered art has has been a question, you know, where we're kind of the thresholds of how we define artists. And then also, questions about, what, when does somebody become an artist, you know, there's, there's a difference between, you know, hobbyists, and part time artists who have another job, or full time artists that are pursuing, you know, you know, professionally and only making money from that, etc. And everything in between, you know, and I think the, the recognition of where folks kind of sit on that spectrum, also defines some of the the respect that they give the resources that they get, and I think that's something that that I would like to continue to challenge, you know, in, in terms of what's considered art, you know, one of our programs this year, just awarded our first hair designer. And so, and giving that recognition to that as an art form, I think, is really significant. And I think, continuing to, you know, our first comedian as well. You know, I think there are things that are, in some people's minds, so inherent to art, that that still need to be addressed, and advocated for and showcase as to why something is an art. And I think we see that, you know, time and time again, in the political landscape, too. So I think it's just, you know, I think we're always going to be pushed up against a wall and, and working to, you know, call that out specifically, to say, you know, this is who we're excluding, we're actively excluding these people. So how do we regulate that?
Ashraf Hasham 33:52
Amazing, what kind of pushback have you gotten? And has? What's your response? Like, in this specific instance, comedy hair design as art forms? Yeah,
Nikki Kirk 34:02
you know, I think. So, my undergraduate degree is in political linguistics. And so I studied a lot of how language is used to influence people. So I think I approach a lot of conversations with, you know, how can we reframe what this is talking about to get to the heart of of what we actually mean? Because people will agree with you. If you put it in a different perspective, often, right, and so I think, you know, hair design as a visual art, comedy as theater, you know, I think just kind of reframing it for something that they understand already. can work to make things more inclusive, while also generally getting to the king of the heart of blowing all of that up anyway. But yes, I did, you know, I did get some pushback, you know, when thinking about the culinary arts and, and other art forms. So, you know, the work that we've done to push into these new spaces is not done. And it's just kind of a repetitive space of revisiting it. Every time we come up into this space to say, why not this? Why not that, you know, where why are these limitations being created? And again, who is this actively excluding?
Ashraf Hasham 35:44
Ah, wow, that is so inspiring. Like, somebody's just got to do it. Someone has just got us to say, Yes, this is an art form. Let's just not go there. And reframing as the key to, to help people understand is certainly a beautiful tool to use. I love that that that superpower of political linguistics that you put into your, your work here,
Nikki Kirk 36:05
Well, you know, I made it up. So it's my major to make it work for me.
Ashraf Hasham 36:11
There it is. I was gonna say, I haven't heard of that. That's cool. Yeah. Amazing. Well, as we, as we wrap up our conversation and get to know folks from around the world, we of course, make sure they answer a few key questions. These all go and get analyzed. Somebody at Creative Generation is locking these somewhere, and there are patterns and trends that emerge. So we'll see. Don't keep that in mind. Just authentically answer though. Alright, let's get into it. Number one, what inspires Oh, sorry, who inspires you?
Nikki Kirk 36:49
So I think I'm inspired by anybody that's pursuing passion. You know, the joy that let you know, I talked about the performance on the stage. Anytime I see passion or talk to somebody, their eyes light up with joy. I'm inspired.
Ashraf Hasham 37:03
Beautiful, what keeps you motivated?
Nikki Kirk 37:07
Getting back to that question of why do I do what I do for that purpose? I like to create my own personal mission statement. I think everybody should do that. To give you a why for? Where are you? Where are you going to bat? What are you walking away from? When do you have to get up and fight? You know? What, how do you say to yourself, that purpose is important.
Ashraf Hasham 37:31
Where are you most at home?
Nikki Kirk 37:34
I don't know how to answer this question. So there's, there's a German phrase, it's called Ferran way. And it basically means it's a longing for places I have yet to go. I think it's kind of torture. But essentially, I'm at home when I'm exploring new places. Travel has a calming effect on me, especially if there's sun and water nearby.
Ashraf Hasham 37:57
Yeah, I love that. How do you stay focused?
Nikki Kirk 38:01
List lots of to do lists, very type very organized lots of to do lists, anything that takes less than five minutes to complete. I do it right away, because one, I'll forget about it. But two, I want to carve out time for the bigger things.
Ashraf Hasham 38:15
That's beautiful. Wow. I'm already inspired by you. You're inspired by the question. All right. Final question. Why change?
Nikki Kirk 38:24
You know, I think about, you know, the question is why? Why do you say the same, you know, because it's comfortable, or because it's known, you know, that the adage of don't fix what's not broken, you know, things is so finite, because things may not be broken, but they are. You know, they're they're rusted and they're old and they're jagged, they're cutting you, you know, they can be harmful, I think, you know, just because it's not broken, because they were built to exist as they are doesn't mean we can't change it to make it less harmful to make it exist better. So, you know, I think we have to change because we don't exist if we don't adapt, change that kind of larger scale of trial, trial and error. And we have to figure out a way that works more broadly for all of us.
Ashraf Hasham 39:13
Beautiful way to reframe, way to practice that political, linguistic, amazing. Well, thank you so much, Nikki, for being on the pod. It was amazing talking to you. I love hearing about your history and how you got to where you are today. And the amazing work you're able to do in Indy. Alex,
Nikki Kirk 39:31
Thank you so much. I appreciate you and this space. My first podcast, so exciting. Yeah.
Ashraf Hasham 39:40
I love it. Awesome. Well, we're gonna make sure to include some links to make sure folks know how to find you and some of the work that you've been working on and I saw an article actually with that. That hairdresser, person. Yeah, the Leadership Fellows that will include that in the show notes as well. Awesome. Sounds good. Thanks again. You're all right.
Karla Estela Rivera 40:10
And we are back. Wow, Ashraf, y'all really got into some really cool stuff about the work that Nikki is doing over at the indie Arts Council. You know, it's it's, you know, everything from her origin story to how her experience in arts admin, throughout her life and even in the nonprofit sector, has really informed the ways in which she can jump into bureaucracy, which, you know, she says bureaucracy has never brought me joy. So to be able to jump into this work, as you mentioned, at the top of the show, jumping into a community that she's that she's not from, coming in with a very specific lens, having been in many places across the United States, and saying, Hey, we really need to change these systems in order to make these dollars work for the communities that need it most. So yeah, that was really exciting. What were some of your reflections of that conversation?
Ashraf Hasham 41:29
Yeah, I mean, everything from, you know, coming in adding a new database. I mean, that's hilarious that that's a big deal. But you know, and I know, hugely it changes the foundation of the work that we do, taking the feedback from community, community led equity driven philanthropy values that are informed, like you said, from all sorts of experience, not just in the funding sector. And yeah, just like a balanced perspective, I think, you know, I was reflecting earlier that this conversation was a little more chill, a little more subdued, a little more sort of, you know, lower energy, certainly for me, I came into that video, or sorry, the interview with that mindset, it was just, it was in that space, that moment, and that kind of came out, I think, in the conversation too, you know, it was like, we were kind of just going through this is what it's kind of, like in the bureaucracy, right? Kind of reform equals function a little bit there. Did you hear that too?
Karla Estela Rivera 42:30
Little bit, a little bit. And because I, you know, in the work that I'm in, you know, I think a lot about what it means to be radical in any space that I inhabit, right, I lead with my identity, I lead with this kind of energy that says, None of this is working and the systems as they are built, were certainly not designed with folks like you and me in mind. You know, and so how do we flip it all? How do we burn it all to the ground and rebuild from the ashes and all those things, but it is important to identify that all of this is really a marathon. Yep. Change is a marathon, not a sprint. And yes, there are moments where very intentional direct action and radical activities that that folks might equate with movement work, and protests and things like that are absolutely necessary and part of that ecosystem, but also our folks that are inside the systems that already exist, yes, that are doing what they can within those systems to make the changes at the pace, you know, call it like we call the United States Postal Service, snail mail, right? Because it takes a little bit longer than getting it automatically, you know, via an email. And so those systems are by nature, not quick to change. And so it really is piece by piece, and it is being in systems where not everybody is thinking about the communities in the way that you are or thinking about, or, or even has that value. Right. I mean, we are, you know, in piano itself, and this is not me throwing shade at the state of Indiana. But you know, on paper, that state is what we call the United States, a red state, which is largely conservative, largely white. And, you know, had some Uh, some folks that are, you know, rank high, you know, our former vice president is from the state of Indiana, and he was very, very scary. You know, and so to that end, we don't necessarily equate this kind of change with Indiana. And so I was excited. I was excited to hear her say, you know, we change the system of applying, changing eligibility criteria and diversifying panelists. Right. Those things are critical in really thinking about where this money is going. There's something that she said very early on in the interview, which was that the goal of philanthropy is to create equity, which you Yeah, I I think that's great. I think that's her value in the value of a lot of other folks that we've talked to in the philanthropic sector, on this podcast. I call philanthropy reparations, and it shouldn't be reparations. And, and I hope that we have more people like Nikki Kirk, in these systems really thinking in that way. Because I think large philanthropy has a lot of work to do in order to really make good on this particular goal, if it's a shared value.
Ashraf Hasham 46:33
Yeah, totally. And I hear you saying that that's the goal of philanthropy. And I also hear you saying that, yeah, is it though, and I love that because public funders, like the Kirk and like myself at the City of Seattle, Office of arts and culture, incremental change, incremental progress, takes years and is huge wins, right for community because that's policy change. That's policy change that lives for years and generations and hopefully, continues to get improved as it goes at a quicker pace. Right. But it is based like the, you know, Indianapolis, especially because in the Arts Council, not quite a city departments and nonprofit, technically, it's like, you know, they get the money to then put out in the community, and then they can also fundraise for more money through other partnerships and foundation work. They, I think, have to be a little more balanced. And I think we heard that a little bit in the conversation, I certainly was stoked about it, actually, because I was like, Oh, you're one of us. Let's say I see myself in your space. Because I also have limits to how radical I can be or how much I can frame the work of philanthropy and, and funding as reparations work. I love that you've mentioned that, but I can't do that right now. My current space, and I doubt Nicki can, too.
Karla Estela Rivera 48:05
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, and to that end, I think that this notion of saying you have to listen to your communities, yes, is really the cornerstone of this. Absolutely. And, you know, my and my hope is really, that this is a shared value across all funding spaces, I think shout out to program officers who are probably the closest to the ground into the organizations that are doing this great work, who are doing the listening who are having those meaningful interactions, some of them like crossroads, and others in Chicago, actually only go and do an in person site visit, but you know, immerse themselves in the work a little bit more so that they can come to the boards who are way more removed, and can really make the case for how certain funds should go and how they should be allocated to organizations. So all of that to say cheers to all of our folks that are in the seats in very bureaucratic spaces. Where Slow and steady wins the race. Yes. And And cheers to that, and cheers to Nikki's work and to your work Ashraf and to all the folks that are holding tight because there's also I think, an impatience in particularly when it comes to racial equity, and I think there is just the American desire for instant gratification here that we've got an aim. And, yeah, and that there are, there are layers to this. And so being able to come back out and look at this particular layer of the onion. That is arts funding that is so critical to folks. It was a really great opportunity for me.
Ashraf Hasham 50:25
Yeah, I love that. And I cause change. There's inpatients around how fast it gets to change. There's also a lot of like, whoa, this change is going too fast. And I heard a lot of that tension in that conversation too, as I was listening back to it, listening to communities, yes, is the point. But the challenge you mentioned being challenging, I'm putting my air quotes up being challenging, because, yes, challenging to get to a better place for everybody. That's perseverance, right? And then there's public pushback that comes with it, which is where she reframes, she uses her language, super skills and superpowers to frame it into something where actually this is something that we all want. We all know it. But let's just change the frame, right, so that this fast progress that you think is too fast, actually is not fast enough. And I think that's just yeah, oh
Karla Estela Rivera 51:21
my god, or that this progress, that is really going to the people that need it most may not be you know, and so,
Ashraf Hasham 51:35
yeah, it's hard to deliver that message, it takes a number of different ways to say the same, you know, seven times, you have to hear something before it starts sticking.
Karla Estela Rivera 51:45
That's right. And, and not to reinforce a scarcity mindset, because the money is there. Right. And I broke, you know, but to say that we have to reimagine what it means to serve those that require the most intervention and the most and require the most resources. And how are we managing serving communities at every level? So it's a complicated conversation. And you know, we ain't got to solve it in this conversation. But it takes a you know, my hope is that there are loads of other people having this conversation, where they're at, and maybe even utilizing this kind of conversation as a catalyst for how they look at their own systems. So yeah, that's, that's, that's what I got for today. I think that's beautiful. Yeah, I
Ashraf Hasham 52:47
like that place to end. Yeah. Lots. Yeah, lots more in store, hopefully, for these conversations with funders. So I'm excited to expand those with you and with some of the other folks who were talking to try and pull together a group of creative youth development funders who meet thanks to the Clare Rose Foundation out of San Diego. So that'll be the next conversation I have. And I'm excited to share that with you in the community, Carla. Yes, well,
Karla Estela Rivera 53:15
That is today's episode of the wide change podcast Ashraf, as always such a pleasure and lovely to share space with you. And we will see you next time. Peace.
Jeff M. Poulin 53:29
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write to us at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by Ashraf Zhang. The Executive Editor is Jeff M. Poulan. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is Katie Rainey, the podcast theme music is by distant cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.