During this episode of Why Change? Co-hosts Rachael Jacobs and Ashraf Hasham check in on their outlooks for 2023. Rachael interviews Astrid Jorgenson, the founder of Pub Choir, who focuses on community-based, collective music making. The discussions explore collaboration, inclusivity, new approaches to music-making.
In this episode you’ll learn:
Why it is important to release competition in the arts and enjoy yourself;
How collaborative and social music-making contributed to wellness and inclusion; and
Strategies to achieve accessibility and inclusion in local projects.
Some things from the episode:
Failure in the Arts, check out this blog
About Astrid Jorgensen
Astrid Jorgensen (she/her) is an Australian vocalist, conductor and composer. In 2017, Jorgensen founded Pub Choir in Meanjin (Brisbane, Australia). At each Pub Choir event, Jorgensen arranges a popular song and teaches it to a non-trained audience in three-part harmony, concluding with a performance which is filmed and shared on social media. Astrid has also worked as a producer for ABC Radio Brisbane, and has performed as a keyboardist in Australian indie rock band The Grates. She was awarded the 2019 Queensland Community Foundation Emerging Philanthropist of the Year as a result of her charitable work with Pub Choir. She was also a 2020 Queensland Young Australian of The Year nominee. In 2021 she was named one of the 40 Under 40 Most Influential Asian-Australians by the Asian-Australian Leadership Summit.
This episode was produced by Rachael Jacobs. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s web page and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC.
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
This is why change the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff. Oh, Hola. Hola, soy Carla. It's Rachel here. What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf. And I'm Madeline. Why change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started.Rachael Jacobs 00:37
Hello, and welcome, everyone. It's Rachel Jacobs here on Gadigal. Land in the Eora nation where sovereignty was never seated. And welcome to the Why change Podcast. Today. I have a fantastic interview for you with Astra Jorgensen of pub choir here in Australia, which is kind of taking our whole community, not just our music community by storm. But to begin, I have a conversation with Ashraf, who's with me all the way across oceans and continents. Hi, Ashraf, how are you? Hey, Rachel. Yes, so good. I'm over out here in Seattle, Washington, USA, the land, traditional land of the Coast Salish people, including the Duwamish, the Muckleshoot to lay up many, many other indigenous folks whose whose histories and futures and presents we honor and today actually is Martin Luther King Day Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. So happy happy that for our international audience as well. Yeah, absolutely. I'm clicking my fingers and for as an as an outsider, you know, outside of the US and away from that context. I know what I imagined that database, but what do you what would you do to observe it? Or what would people in the community do to be observing it?Ashraf Hasham 01:56
Yeah, Martin Luther King, Jr. Day usually takes place on like the second or third Monday of January. And it is often the first year I think it's the first federal holiday of the calendar year, one of like, maybe nine federal holidays that we have, and our community here in Seattle, celebrates by lots of activism and workshops and marches and rallies. That's that's really the language of our community and how we celebrate it. Some of us, though, like me today, are taking the day for self care and reflection and well being. I did not participate in any of the rallies or marches today, although they roll past me a few blocks away. So I always, you know, pause and wave my hands and then cheer whenever there, for sure. And here's me excuse my ignorance, I actually didn't realize it was a federal holiday. So that is, you know, something that interests me greatly. All of our public holidays, as we call them here, are kind of deeply scrutinized. Really? Oh, yeah. For what they're about. We don't have a lot of noncontroversial public holidays here. So they all kind of really loaded with something, be it religion or something else. So we're always self examiner, every time we get a day off, it's it's a time for self examination. And honestly, I don't think that's a bad thing. So I think that's great. Yes, agreed there.Rachael Jacobs 03:29
And I guess you know, it's a time marker that signals started the new year as well that when that rolls around, so So what's going on for you in 2023Ashraf Hasham 03:39
Boy 2023 Bringing us in by storm, it is going to be a wild year, my partner and I we've been together for six years now and we're getting married in September this year. So it's a huge year for for wedding planning and bringing people together. Thank you. Yeah, it's it is something that will look more and more be part of my daily, my daily everything right, like talking more about how the weddings go and things like that. So this is a heads up to the audience that I will be bantering about my wedding and it's how it goes and how it's come and gone all year long. So this is the first of many check ins about how wedding planning is going well I want to hear everything because I've also noticed that when aren't spoke, plan their wedding, it's like planning an arts festival. Like they sit with a run sheet and it's like an arts festival. And it's Wow, it's actually the thing that you do every day except now you get to do it for yourself and you're loved you're like very loved community and I'm here for it. Oh, hell yeah. And And amazingly enough it's going to happen. Our wedding is going to be in a music venue one called the crocodile in Seattle at there's like three to Some rooms within this large music venue complex, which also has hotels at the top. It's kind of crazy. But if you've ever been to Seattle, look it up the crocodile, a great place where where a pub choir could one day maybe happen. I don't know how it goes International. And on that note, it's time to hear our interview with Astrid Jorgensen.Rachael Jacobs 05:14
And we'll hear about what pub quiet is, you're going to then fall into a rabbit hole where you start to watch all the back catalogue of pub cries that have ever existed, and seeing the total joy on people's faces as they engage in this incredible series of events. So let's hear it let's go to the podcast Why change podcast interview with Astra Jorgenson See you in a bit. And welcome to the Why change podcast. It's Rachel Jacobs here on Gadigal land. And I have been pretty excited about all of my guests this year. But today, we have an actual celebrity on board with us today. Now Astrid, we do have an international audience. So I've taken a little bit of time to tell them about you and tell them about your your work and particularly to learn about the incredible phenomenon that is of quiet. So everyone if you will please welcome to the Why change podcast. Astrid Jorgen Jorgenson. Astrid I'm so so so excited to be talking to you. Oh my god, what a rap I feel like you should be. I need that kind of pickup every day. Well, that when I say you know, 800 plus maybe 1000 1000 people standing in front of you. I'm sure that the you know, that rap comes from all of them. I absolutely promise you, as soon as is a vocalist, a conductor, a composer and musician, and the instigator of the phenomenon that is pub choir. And as I said, I have told everyone a bit about pub choir but actually want to start with a bit of a story Astrid, it is about one of my friend of a friend, friend of mine, good friend of mine is a pub quiet devotee is there. Pretty much every time if he can get tickets, I watched every video to try and catch a glimpse of him. And after COVID, he had a friend that wasn't doing particularly well. He'd slipped into some depression, he wasn't sleeping particularly well or he was sleeping really long hours. Him and his friends managed to convince him to take their friend down to pub choir. And, of course have the night of his life. By the end of the show. You said we're actually doing our next pub quiet in Charleville. And for our international audience, Charla Ville is maybe a nine to 10 hour drive away from Brisbane where this guy lives. And he turned to his friends and said, Do you want to go? And they did. And they did a road trip. And it was a life changing experience. I stood. I don't know that you know the impact of what you have on people's lives on their well being on their sense of self? What is it for you? What is it about singing? That is so transformative?Astrid Jorgensen 08:15
Oh my god. Well, first of all, this is a podcast. So dear listener, i My mouth was open. It really shocked to hear that someone would go to such lengths to come to the show. That's so special. Thank you for telling me that story. Look, I guess it's different for everyone. Everyone comes with their own story and own purpose in this world. For me, and what I think maybe for a lot of people, when they come to a show like pub quiet or when they just learned to use their voice, it feels really freeing to accept your voice the way it is, I think lots of time is spent feeling bad about not being the best at stuff in this life. And when you come to punk choir, it's truly not about that at all. It's kind of about just being a part of something I even like, it sounds kind of D motivational, but I'm like at the beginning of shows will often say something like you are not the best at anything. So now you are free to enjoy yourself, you know, like none of us are here trying to win. We're going to try and experience it together at the same time. And so I think when it comes to something like your voice, because it's within you, like your voice is created entirely by you, everyone is totally unique to their own body and their own person. So when someone tells you, your voice is okay, and you're allowed to use it to participate. I think a lot of people feel a little bit of freedom. With that, you know, it's not about Yeah, who has the most beautiful voice in the room? It's just your voice is good enough. Use it. Let's go. And yeah, I think it's a special moment of revelation for some people sometimes to think, Yeah, I'm okay to begin.Rachael Jacobs 09:52
I can't agree more as an art educator. You know, one of the things I find really difficult to deal with is the fact that everyone feels like they need to be some kind of professional or mastery to engage in the arts and all that they need to commodify it by selling it or something like that. We need spaces to be vulnerable. And I actually think that pub quiet provides that a space where you don't have to be the greatest singer in the world. But collectively, you can create something so beautiful.Astrid Jorgensen 10:21
Yeah, well, another sort of phrase that I say quite a lot of shows. It's like, it's just not about you doll. Like it's about us tonight. So if you miss a note, no one cares. We didn't hear you at all, you know, we need you to participate. Because otherwise if no one's participating, it's a bit of a weird result. But if everyone just tries their best, we're going to achieve something interesting. So don't worry about it. And yeah, I think the arts sometimes really focuses on competition in in that's really weird to me, because there is no way to win at art or creativity, you can certainly run the fastest and you can lift the heaviest thing, but you can't sing the most beautifully. That's entirely subjective. And so I think it's weird that we pit ourselves against each other as creative people all the time when there is no objective standard. Let's just relax and have a nice time.Rachael Jacobs 11:12
I'm sorry video and I think one of the beautiful things about the arts is we can redefine what winning looks like. You know redefining for my friend of a friend is driving to Tala bill and getting to be part of the community and you know, getting to know other people by by using his voice literally.Astrid Jorgensen 11:28
That's a huge win that thank you to that person. That's so special. Yeah, yeah.Rachael Jacobs 11:33
Well, you know, I have to admit, okay, now confession time I stood, I've only been to one pub quiet. Well, it's now that there's not my fault. I literally can't get a ticket. Sorry, I went to Petco in New York in Brooklyn. It was such a special experience for me to be overseas to be so far away from home. And when the acknowledgement of country started, that was it, the tears just started flowing. I felt like I was so far from home, but so close to home. And afterwards, I'm in Brooklyn, I was alone at pub choir. And I went into the toilets and there's a whole mass of American cheese and them's were in the toilet going. That was incredible. Oh, take taken by they were absolutely raving about Noah's like, Yeah, I knew about this beforehand. You know, I knew what you're going to experience. But for you as a music teacher, and someone who has conducted choirs, kind of all your life. Is it amazing for you to see people 800 and 1000s of people at a time vying for tickets and you know, and it's shows selling out in minutes. Is that incredible for you?Astrid Jorgensen 12:57
Oh, yeah, I mean, pre public word. I feel like my employment history was just like a very sad list of of awkward attempts and mostly failures. I mean, pochoir is a surprising combination of all of those failures in a way that weirdly works. Like it's No, it's the most surprising to me. And yeah, I guess it is, it is wild to think that we've sort of made like, I don't know, it's quite cool. Again, I don't know, I didn't think that I would be doing anything that would be cool. And like sometimes I get to collaborate with like, really, I don't know, well known artists or like go on festival lineups, and things like that, where I'm like, I can't believe that I'm mixing in this crowd. Like it's, it's been a really surprising wonderful, exciting five years since pochoir. Started, I would say that these days in like a post pandemic or ish, we hope soon post pandemic world, there is a bit of a different mood. So prior to COVID in about 2019 Yes, you're right. It was like the ticket 100 games people were just snapping up pub quiet ticket, like I couldn't even fathom the demand. I think now people's habits have changed a little bit. And so you know, a lot of people might be a little bit more hesitant to get into a really crowded space or, or to, I don't know, to really let their voice rip and so it's almost like we needed a little bit more than ever now I feel is that we need to connect on a really like human level again. So I'm hoping that we can get back to that energy of I need to sing with others, like I need to be in the room and I need to make something positive for strangers. And it's important you know, like, at the moment that's kind of what we are trying to rebuild in people's minds and I hope we can get back to that feeling.Rachael Jacobs 14:46
I so hope you can as well because I think you know, but pub quiet I guess for me when it was sort of like everything vanished from the during the pandemic. It was one of those things I was like, why is this pandemic taking The way the beautiful and the best things about it, were, please just take the ship things, you know, the destruction and but it was like, wow, that is such a blow. And do you mind if I ask how did you personally cope during that period when we can't get to communion together and your art and your stage was literally taken away?Astrid Jorgensen 15:23
Well, do you know what in it in a very rare turn of events, actually pub choir, which is a business that I direct and has a few contractors and employees and everything like that, I think in a very rare way, which I'm so grateful and aware that this is not that way that it worked out for everyone, we managed to find a way through, because I changed it to couch choir. So it became this online experience. And so rather than teaching people in real time, where I was, like, you know, listening and responding to what people were doing in the room, I was sending out pre recorded instructions online, and people were able to just take that in in any time that they needed, and to process the instructions, and then to send me back videos of themselves singing along. What's weird is that we did that for free, I put out those instructions for free, we edited it all together for free, I really wanted people to feel like there was still a place for that even though we're all really separate from each other. But the weird thing that happened is, I think, like garnered a little bit of attention. And so what happened was businesses started writing into us and being like, can we pay you to facilitate this from for our work from home stuff all around the world or something like that. So we kind of ended up making these ties with the corporate world, and with like online events and things like that. So in this very rare instance, actually, we found a way to survive. And so yes, I understand that that is not the common thread and the common story for many arts and creative workers. But for us, yeah, we were really lucky to be able to still maintain a little bit of work. So I guess right at the beginning, I had a bit of like Doom energy, wondering what we could possibly do. But it did turn around quite quickly. And I'm so grateful as well for the people that I work with, for being willing to just dive in and do this work online for free to begin with. We were like, Let's keep making positive stuff. Let's just do our best. And then that kind of translated into something tangible for us all to kind of keep keep leaving us, which is awesome.Rachael Jacobs 17:27
Well, I personally am so grateful because I actually lied I it's that wasn't my only papaya, I did participate in couch choir. Incidentally, I sang all the things that I have done, and which I learned in New York. So I feel like Jesus would love to be good at it now.Astrid Jorgensen 17:49
Yeah, that's such a good song. It works on all mediums.Rachael Jacobs 17:53
It really does. It really does. But again, the tears flowing, watching everyone from home dressing up united in song, it is a gift and for you to do that, and your team to do that for free. Because my god, the technological undertaking of that you have a team from, you know, they're from they're from a different place.Astrid Jorgensen 18:13
I think I think they would say, team from hell, but because I'm always like, Hey, I've had this idea that no one's done before trying to figure out how and they're like, oh,Rachael Jacobs 18:21
we'll give it a go. Like,Astrid Jorgensen 18:22
I mean, I guess actually, that sometimes people ask me like, oh, how do you get like, such a creative team so motivated and whatever. And I'm just like, that their motivation comes from within i There's no way that you can, I'm externally draws such an incredible result out of people, like the people that I have magically landed myself with are so smart, and motivated and empathetic, and just really good people. And you know, all I do is just give them crazy ideas, and they helped me run with it. So yeah, it's awesome.Rachael Jacobs 18:53
I dare say they're motivated by the joy, but also by the very inclusive space that you that you hold the inclusivity of what you do has always struck me as really important, for example, for example, tying in with Auslan, interpreters and reaching out Auslan is where our international audiences are sign language, reaching out to the deaf and hearing impaired community to make things more accessible. Also, I know that when you have parts, you know that people sing that anyone in any gender can sing any part. And of course, the acknowledgement of country that sang that is so beautiful, that inclusive practice that underpins what you do. How do you endeavor to make sure that that's always part of what you're, what you're what you're doing day to day?Astrid Jorgensen 19:43
I mean, it's it. It would be a lot to try and encompass at all times the entirety of the human experience, but I guess all I can ever do is listen and respond. So we didn't always have Auslan interpreters at shows. And then when we started doing couch, quiet online And we opened up those submissions for free, we got a lot more diversity of responses. And for the first time, like, I would just send out videos of myself singing and I would say, watch this video and send me back what you think I want. Let's just put it together and see what happens. And people were sending back choreographed videos of themselves dancing, no singing, like, I didn't ask for it. But people started sending an instrumental videos. And then on top of that, we started getting silent videos, but people performing the song in sign language. And it just sort of opened up my mind being like, Oh my God, I've opened the doors to be more inclusive, and now I'm getting a more diverse response. And I'm able to see a more rich understanding of what music is in society. It's not just for people who can hear, you know, the whole deaf and hard of hearing community also wants to be a part of something collaborative with the community. So then, that opened my mind to the idea of, well, how can we include everyone true? Because I always say I think music for everyone singing belongs to us all, then how can I actually put that into practice? Now that I've become more aware of our shortcomings, I mean, I just haven't looked I hadn't looked in it hadn't been, you know, hadn't come to my consciousness. So now that we know that, I can include an Auslan interpreter at our shows, and reach out because now I've also started learning Auslan myself, so I'm doing my certificate for at the moment, I'm just about finished. And so actually trying to make a meaningful connection with the deaf community, not just do it like slapping a Auslan interpreter up and what having no no deaf audience that would be just tokenistic. And so thinking to myself, if I want to connect with this new, new musical sphere, then how can I do that in a meaningful way? And I guess yet to sum that up, it's just like listening and responding, you know, what to people were trying to reflect the reality of the community, because that's what singing is, is just like regular people all working together as best they can. And so who are the people that are in our audience? And what do they need from us? Yeah,Rachael Jacobs 21:59
I think that that, you know, that holding space for you know, you open that space, and then, and then when you get a diverse response back that speaks to the work that you do. And this check out this podcast is called Why change and we specifically invite changemakers, from the community, in the arts to be interviewed. I do know that also, that while you are best known for pub quiet, it is not the entirety of your work. So why don't you tell us what what are you working on at the moment?Astrid Jorgensen 22:29
Well, pub choirs is, it's a big time suck in my time. Um, I mean, also on the site, I've just finished this project that had been going for about six months, where I was honored to be asked to contribute to a community music project by one of my mentors who taught me at university, which would be a good 15 years ago now. But Dr. James Kelly runs a community music. I don't know, almost like a University. He's got. He's got like the, the Marvel Universe, but for music, he's, he's got like this whole, it's called called AI, which is like a song using hand signs, and so far, and it's like a certain way of thinking about music. And that's what I learned at university. And he wrote to me, and he said, Look, I've got this budget from a choir that I ran for 20 years that has now come to an end. And I've got this money in the kitty. And because I was part of that choir, when I was at uni, he was like, as someone who writes music and who was in the choir, what could we include you in this project, like a legacy project for this choir, to write 20 songs that can be given freely to the world. So I think, you know, sometimes with things like repertoire, and sheet music and education and stuff like that, there are a lot of barriers to a lot of people in knowing how to purchase the music, and what good quality music looks like, and things like that. And he's like, you know, I want you to write 20, good quality, short songs that anyone could sing. And then he's reached out to a number of people as well. And they're putting together this huge project that will have hundreds of songs all by Australian and mostly Queensland songwriters, and composers and arrangers, that will just be gifted to the world as a legacy project for this choir that existed for a couple of decades. And so yeah, I've been writing 20 songs. I just finished it recently, like little little projects like that, where it's like, I'm still trying to find a little creative outlet as well. Pop choir is amazing. It's working exclusively with other people's music that already exists. So which I love because then people who come to the show will know the songs, but it is lovely to have an outlet for my own, you know, wacky ideas as well and musical. Yeah. notions that I have bubbling away in the background. So yeah, that that took up the rest of my time this year.Rachael Jacobs 24:46
That was absolutely huge, like the composition of 20 songs, and I know Dr. James Kelly, well, and I guess, you know, the commitment and the contribution you're making to the community that's really tremendous as well. I'm and we do get to hear a few of your wacky ideas from time to time. When you head on to places like the ABC and hareidi songs about current affairs and politics. Is this a process that you enjoy?Astrid Jorgensen 25:16
Um, oh, yeah. So for a little while there, I was doing something called the weekly musical, which is wrapping up like politics in the weekend, us and just making a silly song out of it. I really do enjoy doing stuff like that. I haven't done it for a little while. I am at the moment working on a little project for the ABC for their New Year's Eve broadcast, I guess I I love. And I feel so honored to be asked to be involved in in these creative output projects. Yeah, it, I feel really tough that I love having the opportunity to keep that part of my brain going. Because I guess the majority of pomp, choir, time and mental energy is spent arranging the music of others. And I love that I love finding a new way to reshape songs for an audience because I think a lot of people just kind of hear songs in the way that they heard it on the radio, whatever, and think that that's stuck in concrete. But actually songs are very fluid. So I love kind of unveiling that for audiences and being like, here's a song that you've heard a million times, but I've made it feel totally fresh. And we're going to sing this new version that belongs to you for tonight. But yeah, it's pretty sick as well, for someone to just give me a blank slate and be like, Hey, do something. It can be overwhelming to but yeah, I love being able to kind of keep that part of my brain nice and exercised.Rachael Jacobs 26:36
That's absolutely you know, ranging is, is so creative, but also creating your own stuff, you know, kind of getting getting, yes stimulated from from, you know, all different areas. Yeah, so it's all happening. To finish up our interview, we have some quick fire questions that we finished with. And and Astrid, you get a bonus question. Just about arranging those songs. And our audience will have some links to pop choir and also links to your work. So they could go and fall down the rabbit hole of watching all the public five videos and singing along and marveling at those beautiful arrangements. Do you have any public choir favorites? Do you have a standout? Do you have one that's really important to you? Yeah,Astrid Jorgensen 27:28
look that you can answer that in a few ways that I know that the most enamored the audience has ever been with the show was when we did life in a northern town. The only time we ever had a absolutely pumping choir mosh pit, the only time that's happened so people, like people could not even stand still. So if you go and watch the video of that, that is the most excited and audience has ever been able to show. One of my favorites and most moving for me as the person who hears the performer because it's weird. I teach the audience and then I become the audience of one because they all sing back to me on stage and the most overwhelmed I've ever been hearing them was when we did the Beegees how deep is your love? And just hearing that back on the stage I found very moving. And then probably the most special overall one which I watch every now and then when I feel a little bit down and I've never felt I always feel better when I watched this one is that in 20 I think it might have been 18 We did for Christmas poor Kelly's how to make gravy with and it was the first time we'd had like, I had included a string arrangement and it was at Brisbane City Hall. And when I watched that, um, I kind of I don't know, it grounds me a little bit just being like this is really important. I should do my work. Got to concentrate Yeah.Rachael Jacobs 28:44
Well, I actually had it written down right here how to make gravy was my was was my number one. So now and it really showed me that pub quiet as the Christmas ritual that Christmas you know kind of song that you do is really special. But thanks for that insight. And here are the questions we call them quickfire questions, answer in whatever way you choose. Astrid Jorgensen who inspires you?Astrid Jorgensen 29:14
I'm lots of people. And my parents are really nice and generous and kind and smart, intelligent, funny people.Rachael Jacobs 29:24
I will add, or they will spin folk as well. I'm just curious because in my experience, from the 10 years that I lived in Myanmar, and they are the most kind, generous, amazing person, soAstrid Jorgensen 29:37
yeah, if they're Yeah, yeah. My parents both live in Brisbane. My mom's from Singapore originally. My dad's from New Zealand but yes, we've been in Brisbane for over 20 years. SoRachael Jacobs 29:47
yeah, fantastic. What keeps you grounded?Astrid Jorgensen 29:52
Um, the daily everything going wrong behind the scenes situation with my work like you know the The videos that you see on stage are incredible. And that helps balance everything out. But there's a lot of work that goes into every show. And so that keeps me very grounded. Because mostly everything's on fire backstage all the time.Rachael Jacobs 30:14
Yeah. Where do you feel the most peaceful?Astrid Jorgensen 30:19
I love quiet. I don't think that anyone would expect this from me. But I would definitely class myself as an introvert and I am re energized by spending time alone in solitude with absolute silence.Rachael Jacobs 30:31
I am absolutely surprised. And number of people have talked to me about pop choir. And they said, and have said, what, what is the magic ingredient that makes it work. And we've talked about all the things that singing does for you and being there as collective. But I've also said I don't think we can discount. The Astrid factor is when you're on stage, you are on fire and a lot of people are coming to see the show that is you Astrid. So that'sAstrid Jorgensen 30:58
very kind just know that I don't sustain that all the time. Anyone?Rachael Jacobs 31:04
I don't know that anyone could. But But I mean, yeah, very interested to hear that. This is the why change podcast, and it is about the arts and social change. And our last question is always, so Astrid, why change?Astrid Jorgensen 31:20
I think that the idea of doing things because that's how they've always been done leads to nowhere. We've already tried that life moves forward, not backwards. And there's no other live to figure stuff out. If you know, something already. Let's look to the next thing and keep, keep listening and responding. It's how I live my whole life. You know, let's see what comes up. And then let's adapt to that and continue to be better and to experience our lives more richly. And to not waste time. You know, life is so precious. That's why we should change it's, we're always looking for, I don't know, to experience our own lives more richly. That's what I'm looking for. And so if I need to change to do that, I will, I will listen and respond and adapt. And I haveRachael Jacobs 32:07
a feeling that that is what so many of our listeners, and so many people around the world are looking for as well is a rich life full of listening and responding. Astrid Jorgensen, thank you so much for joining us on The Why change podcast.Astrid Jorgensen 32:20
Oh, thank you for having me. And thank you for singing with me. I hope to sing with you again soon.Rachael Jacobs 32:24
Well, so I've got January 18. I have a ticket asteroid in Gadigal. Country. When you come down to to Gadigal land I am going to be in the front row singing my law.Astrid Jorgensen 32:39
Can't wait to see you there.Rachael Jacobs 32:44
Thanks for listening everyone to our way change podcast interview with Astrid Ashraf, what do you think?Ashraf Hasham 32:51
Oh, wow. I just loved hearing from from her about all sorts of things. her positive attitude first, just like was overarching the way she talked about, about participation as the goal the freedom to be yourself the culmination of failures, leading her to this like, career path slash livelihood that she's gone down around, making choir cool, you know? Oh, yeah. And, man, all sorts of things. How about you?Rachael Jacobs 33:22
Yes, so much of that. I'm interested that you started on positivity. And I think we're going to talk about a whole lot of issues about what this does for people in the community and its benefits. But I also just want to take a moment to say that, I think it is very much it is very much Astra generated, that the heart is a loving, positive force of nature that is doing this. And I think that a lot of people genuinely come to watch Astrid, that she's so charismatic and such a superstar and brings people together in such a beautiful way. I think it's beautiful role modeling for the arts community. That is a really pivotal, you know, she is kind of a really pivotal part of this. So I love that you started with the positivity, that the freedom to be yourself, I think is is really strong. And Ashraf is sort of reflecting on some of the podcasts that we've done before. And mine and yours are very much usually about intersectional identities, people making art that is disruptive people making people kind of fucking shit up, you know? And this is a little different for us. This is a little to the side. What are your reflections on this being part of why change this being a different way to fuck shit up so to speak?Ashraf Hasham 34:47
Yes, well, so I have like at least two things. One is the fact that leadership, the way in which Astrid like you said was modeling it for our community doesn't have to look like I'm the one person in the front, taking up all the space. Actually, the way I asked her does it, she's literally the only person who's not participating in the largest thing, right? She said that a couple of times was that she's the audience for one. And that's so beautiful. The fact that she spends the first part of the time when we don't see as the YouTube audience as, for me at least, but you just see her kind of doing her thing and leading the choir, it's everybody else, that's a star, not her right like that is beautiful, in and of itself, in terms of just like a leadership, microcosm. And then the second thing would be like, the idea of the idea of disruption can be accessible, it can be actually, it can be natural, it can almost be something that people want. And for somebody to take the step to do it, and put themselves out there like that, whether it's choir or a different medium, I think is just incredible, like what a way to, to lead by being kind of silly, right? Or lead by pointing out, you know, that it doesn't have to be about you at all, actually, it's about all of us. And the little things that you do bring are that are what she said good enough. I thought was so novel, I guess, like it's just new for me to hear people talk like that I just really, really, really resonated with me. How about you?Rachael Jacobs 36:21
I agree. And I think the way to the way she approaches that is that you are good enough that you are deserving of this, and you belong here and things like that, I guess, as an artist, great reframe. Thank you. Yeah, as an artist, educator, you know, people come and stand in front of me the whole time, and it's in framed in that I can't play I can't sing, I can't dance. I you know, all of this and, and just the way that she in capital encapsulates the UI enough, but then also that it's not about you.Ashraf Hasham 36:54
Yes, yeah. I love love. Love that. Yeah, you're making exactly it's not about you. Yeah, it's about us. And I think we talked about that Creative Generation, right? collective leadership is about is about us, not you. And sometimes that does mean changing of the paradigm, because we are so built into this white supremacist mindset of a bootstrap mentality, at least that's like an American notion, right? pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, individualism, right? But this is, though, this goes back to the roots, right? A little bit of musical music as a universal language, which, gosh, I felt all over the place. I can't agreeRachael Jacobs 37:37
more. And I think, you know, I'm definitely generalizing. But in a lot of collective cultures, the notion of the voice and using your voice and things like that, for your community isn't, isn't not a foreign concept. So we have a lot of, you know, an example is a lot of Polynesian communities here that sing all the time that that is, and, you know, having so many opportunities to sing, and it doesn't appear daunting for them, it appears a natural way of being. And I wonder if it's because the collective is always first it's not about you, is about contributing your voice to this, you know, to make the community stronger, and I think that we can we can all we can all learn a lot from that coming.Ashraf Hasham 38:24
Yeah, that's like a decolonized view of the of the act of singing, right? The act of choir, the body that is a choir. Yeah, what a beautiful way to put that.Rachael Jacobs 38:35
Yeah, and just on that it is called pub quiet, because it originated in the pub and drinks are a big part of it. But I also think in a way, Astrid is demystifying the pub. So the pub in Australia is kind of his institution is not just about drinking is where a whole bunch of things happen from conversations, to food, to Communion to, to activities, and things like that. And a lot of people do find it an exclusive space, I understand that. And it is culturally exclusive for a lot of people so I get that as well. But I think Astrid has done what she can to take to take the pub out of the pub, put it in a different venue, keep the spirit Yeah, keep the spirit of the pub and being like the drinks are there if you want them but that's not what we're here to do.Ashraf Hasham 39:27
That's beautiful. And how wouldn't inclusive look at a pub right or at eight institution of such putting it into a different venue altogether to makes it easier for people who maybe don't imbibe or have a little trouble being in space with other people for whatever reason, to have them have a purpose right a place to be and a reason to be there. And 2800 of them,Rachael Jacobs 39:48
Oh, my God. Yeah, and regularly, regularly This is and and it becomes more accessible as it evolves, you know, astras reflecting that, yeah, we heard that, yeah, what was your What was your reflects reflections on the kind of accessibility andAshraf Hasham 40:09
I love that it came so naturally. And Astrid was real about saying this wasn't really my idea at all. Like, this is just the feedback that came from the community and an intuition of just wanting to do better and keep keep, I guess, living her values, right, putting those values into practice. And when she mentioned, tokenism, or lack thereof, in the way that she's doing it, that came across I mean, profoundly in her actions, right? She said she's getting a degree or a certificate or some sort of matriculation of a subject matter, right. That is for more accessibility. And that's, that's what a what an amazing way for her to practice what she preaches, while also not being better than thou about it, right? She's just so casual about the work that she does in accessibility and inclusion. How about you? What did you?Rachael Jacobs 41:02
Yeah, she's so dissenters herself in so many ways. That's really fantastic. And I wonder if that goes back to what she said that evolved out of a series of failures and really owning that. And we talk about failure in the arts all the time, we talked about failure and creativity all the time, that it's an essential pathway in order to be creative and make make stuff work. But I often don't think that we live that I often think that we hide our failures in a really, you know, there's a lot of shame about that, where she just owned all of that pathway, or that pathway in in her interview.Ashraf Hasham 41:48
Yeah, and how, really another way to look at failure is, is the creative process, right? It's listening and responding, which is what Astrid said literally said about the inclusive work, it's it was listening to her community and responding to it, which the Colin response, you know, that comes from that visual of listening and responding, comes as back to the combination of failures, I think that's really, really beautiful how the creative process actually is the reason why she's in the space, right, it's the creative process that brought her here, the the call and response to iteration, the iteration iteration, to pub choir as an hour, something that she does 24/7 all the time, right, besides a little project that she talks about, to which allow her to keep her creativity alive and, and work in music in different ways. Right, from recorded original music to, to, in this case, with pub choir, things that already existed in the world popular music that is used and given a second, third, fourth life.Rachael Jacobs 42:50
Yeah, I can't agree more. And, and just on that note, shout out to all the arts educators out there because of what Astra does is a product of what you all do. That yeah, the the terms that she use, listening and responding, that's a direct reflection of what is written into our arts curriculum. So I just say this to write up flow through between what we're teaching in schools, in the communities through art projects. And, you know, this is in some ways, we're seeing the end product, it's not the end, it's still evolving. But what we're seeing, you know, the product of a collective of, of 1000s and 1000s of amazing committed people, educators, and artists and community artists and activists doing their beautiful work and speaking of amazing artists, or changemakers. Ashraf, what's coming up for you in 2023? We've already we've already heard already heard the Big Bang, we've already heard. What do you what are you working on? Yes.Ashraf Hasham 43:51
Boy, gosh, so much are still over at the Seattle office of arts and culture working for the government space, and seeing how money can continue to be flowed back into community taxpayer dollars back into community. And so this year, we are embarking on a second year of funding for that it's coming out of essentially post pandemic funding for creative workers to get back into creative work, whether they've had trouble getting there or not, and setting some standards in so doing so. We are building a second year of a project we built last year called Hope core in which we are insisting on artists paying themselves a minimum of $30 an hour for creative work that benefits community. And that's $30 An hour American and a place like Seattle, it really is kind of what you need to survive here. And it's such an expensive, growing city full of all sorts of different classes of folks. And it's it's going well. I mean, last year, we had $2 million to give away and we had $30 million of requests over 300 proposals and we can only fund about a 10th of them. And we will have another opportunity to give out another million dollars this year. So just getting excited about brilliant all the new work that's happening at the office and through Creative Generation, I'm excited to be able to interview folks who do that sort of policy level work and fund, really, I guess, grant making work. Beyond beyond just the sort of typical government models, or the typical foundation models, I'm really looking forward this year to interview more folks who give money away to arts communities talk about how they do it, how they're disrupted. And so doing, talking to maybe some corporate folks, I was really inspired actually, what when Astrid talks about the corporations that reached out to her during lockdown, yeah. And who really stepped up and actually had the idea to bring them on. Like, this wasn't something Astrid was shopping around to folks, it was that person in the corporation that said, Hey, I saw this, I was part of it before the lockdown and wonder if there's a way for us to, to include them in our community building inside of our office work that is now distributed, right. And it's that person that like creative person who sparked the notion for this sort of corporate trainings, or whatever it was, they ended up being I that was kind of the real MVP moment for me when I was like, oh, that's like, that's actually what I'm really excited about is people like that, who come up with really cool ways to incorporate Community Arts work into their corporation and into that kind of stuff. So I really want to see if I can explore that little thread this year, through the white change podcast,Rachael Jacobs 46:35
I've always really loved that aspect of your work actually, atrophy is the is the kind of disruption of ways of funding and bringing about particularly new work is that a lot of the funding models that we have, you know, particularly here are just so inadequate, or they're really broken, or that they just don't really not fit for purpose. And I think you're exploring those avenues. I've actually always found it really inspiring. I cannot wait to hear more.Ashraf Hasham 47:04
Yeah, hook me up with some of those, those changemakers in Australia and other places that you've met Rachel, because I need to get next International, my audience as well. Will looking forward to seeing what we can all bring together into this super that we're creating together this year.Rachael Jacobs 47:21
And most definitely, and that's why you know, we we kind of try to have an you know, international network where we hook people up. So listeners if you're interested, come and approach us as well. So it is trying to wrap us up. So Asha, wishing you really well for 2023.Ashraf Hasham 47:41
Likewise, yes, anything you want to leave our audience with which what you what you're up to these next few days, I know you're gonna see Astrid pretty soon, right.Rachael Jacobs 47:48
Oh, my God I am. So I've definitely got my pub choir tickets because Astrid is based in our northern city, which is Brisbane meanjin. And I'm here in Sydney wearing so it's only when it tours that I'm able to participate. So I'm really excited about that. I'm also working with ITAC, again, the international artists collaborative, great friends of Creative Generation. And I am now back on board as one of the ITAC ITAC create creators for 2023. And we're looking at creating a resource, anti racist resources that arts educators and community artists. So that is really exciting. I'm in a partnership with Rachel Dwyer, who is an arts academic, here in Australia, and also Karla Estela Rivera, who is a great friend. And of course, Asha is on our team. And so we're going to be creating some resources that are hopefully helpful to artists around the world who, you know, who are following that anti racist pathway,Ashraf Hasham 49:03
more power to you and more power to them to try to get those resources out there and help get those out there in the pacific northwest of the USA as well. Yeah. Those longRachael Jacobs 49:12
will do. Well, thanks, everyone, for joining us. Hope you enjoyed the Why change podcast, and this is Ashraf and Rachael signing off. We'll see you next time. Peace.Jeff M. Poulin 49:24
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the shownotes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write us at info at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by Rachel Jacobs. The Executive Editor is me Jeff employee. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is At rainy the podcast theme music is by distant cousins A special thanks to our contributors co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support