During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Karla and Jeff welcome the Fall season and discuss Karla’s interview with Marissa Reyes. Marissa is the Chief Learning & Engagement Officer at the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art in Bentonville, Arkansas, where she oversees programs which democratize creative dialogues for learners of all kinds within the museum. They discuss the tangible strategies employed within art education, museum, and other settings to empower youth voice and important conversations.
In this episode you’ll learn:
How museums foster dialogues among their publics;
In what ways art, architecture, and natures are connected to support those dialogues; and
Why museums must be civic spaces.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
ABOUT MARISSA REYES:
Marissa Reyes is the Chief Learning & Engagement Officer at Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art with 20 years of experience in arts and culture sectors. Prior to Crystal Bridges, Marissa was the Director of Learning and Public Programs at the Museum of Contemporary Art Chicago (MCA). In this role, she was responsible for the strategic and creative leadership of the museum’s full range of programs, including school partnerships, lectures and gallery talks, symposia, student tours and workshops, family days, events, teen programs, and community engagement. At MCA, Reyes spearheaded important initiatives, such as the museum’s award-winning S.P.A.C.E. (School Partnership for Art and Civic Engagement) and Teen Creative Agency (TCA) programs that continue to garner accolades for innovation. Previously, she was Associate Director of Programs at Urban Gateways: Center for Arts Education, where she developed an integrated program of artist residencies and teacher professional development in Chicago Public Schools. Reyes frequently served as a panelist, grant reviewer, and curriculum adviser. She was the recipient of the 2014 Illinois Museum Educator of the Year Award.
This episode was produced by Karla Estela Rivera; the executive producer is Jeff M. Poulin. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s webpage and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:01
Hey y'all, Jeff here. Before we get started, I want to tell you about a conference happening this coming February. It's the one I'm most excited to attend in 2023. The annual beyond school hours conference. The beyond school hours National Education Conference will be held February 9 through 1220 23. in Orlando, Florida. Foundations Inc. The conference host is celebrating 26 years of supporting education professionals from across the nation, ensuring we help all children thrive in school and in life. This conference brings together thought leaders from across the country to collaborate for a greater impact. I can't wait to meet the amazing speakers like Sonia Manzano, aka Maria from Sesame Street, and the foundation's 2023 champion of children, the award winning journalist Soledad O'Brien, the three and a half days of professional learning provides attendees like you and me with the much needed tools and resources they need in order to provide support for young people in their communities. Learn more at beyond school hours.org Again, that's beyond school. hours.org See you there. This is why I changed the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff. Well Hola, soy Carla. It's Rachel here. What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf. And I'm Madeline. Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started.
Karla Estela Rivera 01:41
Well welcome everybody to the wide change podcast. My name is Karla Estela Rivera, and I am here with my friend, Jeff pullin. How are you, Jeff? Hey, Karla, it's good to be with you here. Today on the wide change podcast. Happy fall, happy fall. Indeed, the weather has shifted here. It is like true fall weather. Now I am that silly person that gets dressed in the morning and throws on shorts, because you know, it's the same temperature inside my house all day every day. And then I go outside, and I'm now freezing. So it's, but it's good to be there. I'm really excited to get our fire pit going and start to lean into those fall activities. Oh, my goodness, I'm still not really accepting of this reality. But some are sure they did clock out right on time in Chicago. But I'm looking at my plants on my deck as we're talking. And I'm, you know, looking at the nature that's still around me. And, you know, yes, the fall is gorgeous. And it's beautiful. And it means a lot of changes. And it means a lot of shifts into great activities and different things. But you know, I've been thinking a lot about what it means to be surrounded by nature and the kinds of things that you can do in spaces like these. And it got me thinking a lot about the conversation that I had with Marissa Ray over at Crystal Bridges in Arkansas. And yeah, why don't we listen to our conversation, and I would love to hear what your thoughts are.
Jeff M. Poulin 03:26
Absolutely. Let's do it. We'll come back on the flip side.
Karla Estela Rivera 03:32
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the wide change podcast. My name is Karla Estela Rivera, and I am so happy to be joined today by Marissa Ray, the chief education officer of the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art. Marissa, welcome. Thank you so much, Karla. I'm so happy to be here. Excellent. Can you tell us a little bit about Crystal Bridges and the kind of work your organization does. And then more specifically, like your department and the kind of work that you do there? Sure. I'd be happy to.
Marissa Reyes 04:08
And I will say if you've not had a chance to visit the museum. It is a lovely, beautiful space. And I really encourage everyone listening today to come and plan and include a trip to Northwest Arkansas on your travels. We are located in northwest Arkansas, in a town called Bentonville. It's sort of like you can imagine the map of Arkansas we're looking at in the upper left corner, but we see ourselves as serving a larger region outside of the city in which we're located, so northwest Arkansas, as well as Missouri and Oklahoma and obviously all of Arkansas. We have an American Art Museum which means that our collection is geared towards works by American artists that tell broad inclusive stories about who we are as a society as a nation, from historic all the way to contemporary works. We are also, more than just a museum, we really think of our sort of programmatic pillars as art, architecture and nature. We are located in 120 acres of Ozark woods, with five miles of trails surrounding the museum. We have a world class building that's designed by architect Moshe Safdie. And so we really think about those three pillars: art, architecture and nature, sort of guiding the work that we do, and our relationships with our communities.
Karla Estela Rivera 05:51
That sounds like such a beautiful place to be. It really is it so it isn't just like beautiful artworks hanging on walls, although I'm not going to minimize that because they are collection is really, really
Marissa Reyes 06:09
impactful, I'd say, in many ways, including the fact that it really attempts to really represent the different voices and perspectives that walk through our doors. So you know, my walk to work is just, you know, it's a trails through the trails and grounds of the museum and then entering into a space that is very welcoming, very inviting lots of glass all over so that you can immediately well, even as you're walking through the galleries, you'll see like locked galleries, obviously for our works. But then in between the in between spaces are spaces that have windows on either side. So you're always reminded as you move from one gallery space to another, that you are nestled within these beautiful woods and you're seeing, you know, parts of the Ozark Woods really come to life.
Karla Estela Rivera 06:59
Yes. So tell me, you talk about the diverse communities that come and interact with the museum? Can you tell us a little bit about the communities and who your typical visitors are?
Marissa Reyes 07:12
Sure, um, well, you know, like, this is a museum, that's a world class destination. So we see a lot of tourists and we welcome tourists from outside of the US also regional tourists people drive and make, you know, we are a destination for, for many people who live, you know, hours and hours away, they come to the museum, because they know that it's such a special place. At the same time, we are a local museum. And so we really think deeply about primarily the Northwest Arkansas region, people who are, you know, within an hour, two hours drive to the into the museum and that population, that community is very, is becoming more diverse, and it's growing this region, particularly because it's such a hub for for certain corporations like Walmart and Tyson. And JB Hunt, it is a major draw for the workforce sector. And so, you know, we are seeing we are in a moment where we are experiencing growth in the region in terms of jobs and population and also an evolving and shifting museums. So increasingly, we're seeing more diverse communities moving into space. And so you know, so part of the museum, it's like it's, it's, it's, it's a real mixed bag of who you have, who you're seeing the museum, depending on the day that it is.
Karla Estela Rivera 08:50
That's great. So I would love to shift the conversation from the museum for a moment. And I always love to ask folks that I'm interviewing about their origin stories. So thinking about whether you have an artistic origin story, I'm super curious about your journey in arts education. Oh,
Marissa Reyes 09:16
sure. I'm sure they have to say a little bit about that. Um, so I'm, I was born and raised in the Philippines and was raised primarily by my grandmother and I have four siblings. My mother emigrated to the US when we were children. You know, it's very typical Filipino stories are like exporting labor into other countries. And then, you know, the sort of like that labor force that then sends money back to support their families in the Philippines. So that was very much our story. My mom worked in the US as a nurse until she was able to sort of petition us through the integration process, and then we're able to bring and join her here. So I moved from the Philippines to Chicago as a teenager, and then really lived in Chicago until really, just until three years ago when I moved to Arkansas to take on this role at Crystal Bridges. So, I guess part of my origin story is very much informed by, you know, my cultural background, my upbringing. And, you know, and my interest in the arts has always been there, you know, I think much to my mom's chagrin, who wanted me to grow up to be a nurse, like, didn't quite fulfill that dream of hers. Fortunately, my other sister did. But, um, but my interest in the arts had been really cultivated from early on with my being raised by my grandmother, who, you know, was a great lover of music and theater. And so that was really part of my sort of, like upbringing, it's just a real awareness and sort of, gravitating towards the art. And so, um, yeah, coming here to the States, I studied film and school, and but, you know, coming out of film school, I was just drawn to just how the arts are such, it's such an important part. And Ben was important from my education. And really, I sort of grabbed found myself really taking on internships and early career jobs, really thinking that position the arts within sort of like a learning context. And so that was, that was sort of, you know, my interest in the arts, married with my interest in education, and learning really brought me to different arts organizations spaces until I landed my first museum job in Chicago at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago. And that spent 12 years there, working my way through eventually leading the education department and thinking, you know, and that sort of, like career path allowed me to think expansively about art and the different ways it's been service, and touch various audiences, from youth, to adults, to families, to teens, to community groups. And so that sort of that trajectory, and that experience that I've built over time, I brought to my current position here at the museum, Crystal Bridges, leading our learning and Engagement Division.
Karla Estela Rivera 12:30
What was it about museums, specifically, that that spoke to you and that continued to speak to you?
Marissa Reyes 12:40
I think because museums are nothing without the public's right, you can say that, you know, a museum can have amazing works of art, valuable pieces, and all that, but it's really just a building and a bunch of objects if you don't have people. So to me, my calling to museums is my desire to really see museums be activated by the very communities it purports to serve. And so that, to me, is the what is what drives me that's really sort of like, my why my big why when it comes to, you know, thinking about my work, it's just like, you know, I think museums need people and it needs and museums need people like me, right, like so the kind of people that have been thinking deeply about engagement, you know, people like us and thinking about, you know, who think, who think intentionally about the programs that we implement, so that museums truly are activated by the, by the audience and in so doing, my hope is that the museum is also similarly impacted and transformed and shaped by the very audiences that it's aiming to serve.
Karla Estela Rivera 13:52
This word activation, we talked about it a little bit when we were talking before our conversation today. And so, you know, in preparing for today's interview, you know, I was so struck by the work that Crystal Bridges is doing through the vehicle of your we the people the radical notion of democracy exhibition. Can you tell our listeners for first what the exhibition is and what someone coming into the space will experience? Oh, sure.
Marissa Reyes 14:24
Um, man, this was such a great important and eye opening project for the museum. So the exhibition is called We the People radical notion of democracy. And at its heart is a display or an exhibition of our history, founding historic documents, original, original documents that shape who we are as a nation, and these documents are in conversation with works from our collection. And so the ideas that drive the exhibition are the ideas are sort of like these high minded ideas that sort of went into the creation of these documents, we have an original print of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, a draft version of the bill of rights. When it was, there were 12 articles as opposed to the final 10. There's an original copy of the 13th Amendment and the Emancipation Proclamation with Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln signature. And these are all sort of on display in the middle of these two box galleries surrounded by an in conversation with historic artworks, all the way to modern to modern and contemporary artworks of all, interrogating and speaking to those very same civic values and ideas that are shaping these documents. And so it's, it's an incredibly special exhibition for us. So my understanding is that it's the first time that those historic documents have been under one roof together in our region. And so that's also a very special privilege that we hold.
Karla Estela Rivera 16:16
That's great. I've been to the National Archives Museum. And so I've seen the declaration, and I've seen the Constitution. And it's interesting, because what those documents symbolize and kind of the heaviness of one the way that they're guarded, right. And then also, you know, the power of those words and those documents and how we interact with them, or process them, or interpret them or, you know, want to activate ourselves within those spaces. You know, it's, it's, it's, it was really special to, to experience in that way. So I can only imagine what that's like, I Crystal Bridges. And you know, I love museums. As a child, I spent a lot of time in museums here in Chicago, I also grew up in the city. And as an adult, as an adult, I've experienced museums here in the US and in other countries. So many of them particular art are particularly art museums are often places where you go and observe art. And perhaps you take a guided tour, and you learn more about the stories behind particular works or, you know, museums can serve as a beautiful backdrop for events. You know, but what I've learned from you is that this exhibition has really activated the museum in ways that it had not in the past. And I'd love to hear more about what you've seen, and what surprised you.
Marissa Reyes 18:04
Oh, sure. I mean, and then it continues to surprise me, because, you know, it's, you know, the exhibition is still running all the way through the end of the year. And I, you know, sometimes really, like, you know, when I get so buried deep in my work, and like I make myself like just like, leave my desk and walk through the galleries, just so I can like sort of both experience exhibition for me for myself, but also sort of see how other people are interacting. But a couple of things that sort of are like, really, what I think are gonna stick in my head, you know, long after this exhibition is done is both the promise of this exhibition to facilitate conversation amongst people who have differences, right. So we are in Northwest Arkansas, and you know, and, you know, it's part of the heartland. So we're like in the middle middle of America, where really people of all political persuasions sort of reside. And what I love about both the museum and particularly about the Constitution is that we all have a personal relationship to the Constitution. And that is an amazing gift of a starting point for a conversation and engagement for the audience. Because, you know, whether you are on the left or right side of the political aisle, you have, you have an opinion about the government, you have an opinion about our founding, about the founders of the country and where this country is headed. And so the opportunity to facilitate that discussion through the exhibition and the programs that we've planned in our continuing to plan is something that we you know, is a responsibility we take very dearly so, our, our, you know, always, you know, the sort of the kind of guiding question that has guided the the, the exhibition and our programming is this idea around what's the Constitution mean to you? What does it mean to me? And so that sort of invitation to think about that question through the programming is also what the thing that we ask all of our presenters in our program to our speakers in our workshop is like to help us really think about this through the lens of why it matters to you and why it's important to you. So our programming is include our programming include programmings programs include high profile speakers, and we invited coming in the next couple of couple of months, we are hosting a conversation with Condoleezza Rice. We are hosting a conversation with Hillary Clinton. We are hosting a conversation with Yo Yo Ma and artists Carrie Mae Weems, we're going to talk about artists as civic agents. This past constitution weekend, we organized a top. It was a new format for us called short talks, big ideas. And we invited eight people from very different walks of life curated this lineup of thoughtful speakers, everybody from Dr. There was a doctor, a university professor, a poet, all responding to the question of what the Constitution means to me. So programming like that is really sort of like, you know, how do we widen the lens of conversation that art can facilitate. So that's been very exciting. Another thing I wanted to also share is like, it's also open up the second vision for us to think deeply about communities and relationships with communities. So on the occasion of the Constitution, we were able to organize the museum's first ever naturalization ceremony. So it just took place this past Monday, working with federal judge to invite 100 new citizens to take their naturalization oath ceremony here at the museum 100 citizens, new citizens from 32 countries were able to sort of become citizens a pivotal experience, experiential moment, in the midst of this beautiful museum and this exhibition, something that I didn't get to experience having come from the from the Philippines and be going through the naturalization ceremony and process in Chicago, I was just in some old, boring courtroom in Chicago. But man, we really made sure that these 100 new citizens this past Monday had a really special experience along with their families. So that was super exciting for us.
Karla Estela Rivera 22:40
That sounds really beautiful. I'm, I've, I've been to a few of those ceremonies, here in Chicago. And yes, they're in these very sterile, concrete, heavy buildings that really administer so many different kinds that you're either there for your happiest moment, or the worst moment of your life, right? Or you're paying a traffic ticket or something. Right. Right. So what a beautiful notion to have the space that is housing, this particular exhibit, also, being a place where perhaps, some of these moments are filled with hope. And some of them are also filled with complications, right? Entry is complicated in its history, and its founding documents were written by white men who probably never imagined the United States that exists today. And the notion of democracy, who it's for, who has a say, and influence how it plays out. And, you know, for the audience, I think it's important for you all to know that right now, you know, they're listening to two US citizens. You're a naturalized citizen born in the Philippines, and I was born in Puerto Rico, which remains a US colony. And I even imagine our own individual lenses, and the ways in which we relate to these historical documents have some parallels and some differences, which is really the beauty and the tension of being in the United States. And, you know, last season I interviewed my friend Quinn Island, a beret, who created this device play called rewriting the Declaration, which is a play that asks the question, what would the Declaration of Independence look like if it were rewritten by non-binary femmes and women of color? And from I Our conversation is yours of mine, it seems like there is this open invitation to engage in this dream space through the way that people exhibit. And so my question is, you know, how has this affirmed? Or change the way you think about the role of museums and their role in civic discourse?
Marissa Reyes 25:25
Well, I think it's, um, we're forming those thoughts right now you're, you know, and that's what I love about this exhibition in this work is that you can even either through the audiences we're trying to serve or even within our own work, it's like we are forming ideas and shaping and evolving who museums ought to be and what we can do. And then we are, we have an audience, we've got programming, we've got our artworks and the building to really shape that evolving idea of what a museum can be, and should be for its communities. So I think that's where we are at the moment is it really, you know, this is sort of like this ongoing rethink of what a museum should look like, could be, I mean, baked into our institutional strategic plan is a priority that says that, you know, our desire to be a museum that is a center for community is going to, you know, require us to think deeply about communities and relationships and how we welcome both the people that have been coming to the museum, and also those people who have, you know, felt excluded or not welcomed inside cultural spaces, like the museum. So we think deeply about that. It's baked into our strategic plan. We that's a guiding sort of tenet of how we think about our exhibitions. And I will also say the title of the exhibition, we the people, yes, it comes from the Constitution. But it also comes from a key work in our collection. And in fact, it's probably the it's the first work that you see, as you enter our permanent collection gallery is this big piece by artists nary Award, which is literally the words we the people on this big wall, and the words are made out of an outline in made out of shoelaces that the artist has collected that represent different identities and different people. So I mean, so I think, so that, you know, that's like, not only is that the title of the exhibition, but it's also the title of the first work that you see in our permanent collection. And that's also the way that people sense it's really, it's, you know, it's what drives us what's, you know, it's what's shaping our community centered, strategic priority. I'd sort of just gone on a tangent, but that makes me really excited about it, because it's the you know, it's such a three simple three simple words, but that they, but they pack a punch, and they are so meaningful for the museum.
Karla Estela Rivera 28:17
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, in thinking about your strategic priorities, and how this informs your start strategic priorities, how do you think, you know, certainly given you food for thought, on, you know, king of the direction of where the museum will go, and the kinds of programming that you will do through the education programs? How do you think this will impact future programming? What kinds of ideas are percolating for you? And I know that, you know, in the performing arts sector, you know, we always think about, like, oh, what kind of shows can we do next season and nothing's ever like set in stone. So, I certainly don't want to, I don't want you to feel like you have to commit to a plan. You know, I'm wondering, you know, what, what is popcorn doubt for you, as you're thinking about not necessarily recreating this moment, but recreating moments like these that allow for that kind of activation.
Marissa Reyes 29:25
Um, you know, this might, um, I think a couple of ways, I think, an hour and this is not speaking to my work and learning engagement. But speaking broadly about the museum our collection practices, how we think about acquiring new works into our collection, is through this lens of like, both a attention to quality work, right, so like, you know, like the worst need to be quality, as well as the works really need to speak to our expanding and evolving notion of who we are as an America as Americans. And so that's the lens that we and so we think about, um, you know, collecting works from, you know, artists that have not been, but that have been underrepresented, right. And so thinking about those kinds of gestures in the curatorial space, but in the learning engagement space, you know, I'd like to think that we are, you know, that's that sort of gesture towards inclusivity. And community and being inclusive and welcoming has always been there, it's just for us, these moments, like the Constitution is also allowing us to flex our programmatic muscles, so that we're able to try things like short talks, big ideas, as well as, you know, continuing relationships and community partnerships, like the ones with the naturalization, use the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service with the naturalization ceremonies. So things like that. And I will also say, you know, this idea of we the people and, and facilitating dialogue between people from different sides of the aisle, that's also, you know, it's a great reminder, as a museum that is in the heartland that is in sort of, you know, kind of middle America, that sees people of all political persuasions, since I also never want to, like, sort of limit the conversations that we have in the museum towards, and privilege one perspective, political perspective, you know, I, you know, I think, and that's something that, you know, coming from city from, you know, my sitting experience in Chicago, that wasn't always the case, you know, here, there's a real opportunity to have different discourse. And, you know, we also serve a rural community. And so, you know, we also till we think deeply about really populating our programs with opportunities for multiple perspectives, different voices, and different types of people to find themselves and find engagement in the work that we do.
Karla Estela Rivera 32:08
That's really lovely. And I am so excited to see how things culminate at the end of this exhibition for you all what what other learnings you will take away and how this influences the future programming that you will have, I think this is a really exciting moment for Crystal Bridges and for you within the trajectory of of how to apply arts learning into these pockets. So that's really cool. I want to thank you so much for taking this time. And before we leave, we always like to ask our folks who are around the world about the work they do, but also to understand what keeps them going in their work in just a few short answers. So if you're okay, I'm going to do a little quick fire. Okay. And this should be quick and painless. So, are you ready? I'm ready. Great, who inspires you? Woo.
Marissa Reyes 33:27
My children. I hope I never lose that sense of curiosity and excitement for the world that they bring to their everyday life.
Karla Estela Rivera 33:38
I love that. What keeps you motivated?
Marissa Reyes 33:43
I sometimes, you know, it's just realizing that there's so much work and so I better get at it. And there's, you know, I am ambitious museums, ambitious. And there's so many more ways that we think we can engage our audiences. There's many ways that we can continually improve our work. So I think that desire to, to do better and to you know, is it drives me and motivates me,
Karla Estela Rivera 34:14
right? Where are you most grounded? Oh,
Marissa Reyes 34:21
it's so funny, because as much as I love museums, and most grounded outside, right, I, you know, like I said, as much as I love being surrounded by beautiful works of art. I mean, every weekend you'll find me someplace outdoors, even if it's just in my backyard or walking down the trails because I think nature grounds me.
Karla Estela Rivera 34:43
Yes. How do you stay focused? Ah,
Marissa Reyes 34:50
ah, I don't know. I feel like that's a work in progress. I mean, I stay focused just like years of discipline. Listen, because if I don't, then my work suffers. But man, if other people, if you have Carla, if you've got some tips, and you know how to keep myself focused when that four o'clock hour hits, and I know I've got three more hours of work to do, please give me some tips.
Karla Estela Rivera 35:18
When I find out, I'll let you
Marissa Reyes 35:22
have coffee and caffeine.
Karla Estela Rivera 35:24
Right? That's, that's usually my go to that's my, that's like my security blanket. Yeah. And finally, why change?
Marissa Reyes 35:35
Oh, I change. Um, because culture doesn't sit still, we are not in a static environment. You know, museums are about ideas and ideas are never frozen in time they evolve, they change according to the context in which it is existing, according to the people that are engaging with those ideas. So, man, if changes are baked into my Outlook, then I probably shouldn't be in this field.
Karla Estela Rivera 36:15
That's great. Well, Marissa, again, thank you so much for spending some time with me this afternoon. Best of luck to you with the rest of this exhibition. And we'll hope to see you soon. And I hope we will share all of the links to Crystal Bridges to the way that people exhibit and and hope that more folks will be able to engage with you in the future. Yes,
Marissa Reyes 36:42
Come visit us. Thank you so much for this conversation, Carla,
Karla Estela Rivera 36:45
of course. And we're back. Jeff, I would love to hear your thoughts on our conversation. I know that you have done and continue to do some work with Marissa and Kristen and Crystal Bridges. So I'm really, really interested to hear what your thoughts are in the conversation that she and I had.
Jeff M. Poulin 37:12
Yeah, absolutely. And full disclosure, I have been working on a project with Marisa pretty closely the past couple of months. And on the very day that we're recording this, I am preparing. Actually, my next task is to pack my bag to go to Crystal Bridges tomorrow morning. So it's really nice to hear the conversation. And it was, for me, really kind of validating and affirming about why we continue to do work and, and do projects with this institution. And I think, to your point, before we listen to the episode, or excuse me, before we listen to the interview, about nature, it's actually one of the things I'm most excited about in heading down to this museum because as Marissa described that they have sort of three pillars around art and architecture and nature. And of course, when you you know walk up to a museum and sort of you get dropped off, in my case by an Uber and walk around the corner, and you just see down the cliff, this stunning, stunning building by mostly soft again, and then you sort of noticed the water, and then you notice that you're immersed in this forest. And it's so cool, because the way that the building is constructed, whether you're outside or whether you're in the galleries, you still understand that you're within this natural habitat. And it's so grounding. I just can't get enough of it when I'm there.
Karla Estela Rivera 38:47
I love that. And, you know, it's funny because I, you know, Marissa, I actually knew briefly in Chicago when she was at the Museum of Contemporary Art. And you know, not to sound Chicago centric or even urban centric. But when you think about spaces that are, you know, active hives of culture and conversation with you wonder how could you leave a place like Chicago? I am and so to not only hear Marisa talk about the space itself and its surroundings, but also to hear you talk about it. You know, it's very convincing, and it makes a lot of sense. And it makes a lot of sense that these kinds of spaces need to exist everywhere. And that, you know, folks really need to not only staff those places, but really think intentionally about the programming within those spaces.
Jeff M. Poulin 39:54
Yeah, and that's exactly it. Carla, I think sorry, I'm getting all excited because you're hitting on and sort of one of my big takeaway points, especially when you asked Marissa about where she's most grounded, and she said, you know, in nature outside, and I find that really interesting because myself, I've been in like full on work mode, you know, I forced myself to actually leave to go out and get coffee today just to like, leave my house and walk somewhere. And it's really interesting, because the grounding nature of the immersive environment, like these Ozark forests that you're in, I think, lend itself to a certain type of approach that people can take that is grounded, that is rejuvenated, that is engaged, so that they can approach these really interesting, potentially touchy topics like the exhibit that they have on right now, the way that people arts and democracy work. And, you know, in a place that is highly politically polarized, it's probably good to have a little bit of fresh air and natural influence, as you might go into a conversation that might be challenging for people, and especially as they bring, you know, I think she referenced Condoleezza Rice and Hillary Clinton, like as part of this series of events, right? There are lots of different elements. And there's a combination that both nature and art can bring that I think, enable that type of discourse that moves, communities,
Karla Estela Rivera 41:33
we're in speaking to what you mentioned earlier about how they're bringing in folks with diverse schools of thought, right, having Condoleezza Rice come, having Hillary Clinton come, but also being an international destination, but then also for the surrounding communities, a space that is actually activated. You know, we think about the founding documents of this country, and kind of the meaning that they hold. And also thinking about the fact that the founders of this country never imagined, the country that we're seeing today, right, the United States that we're seeing today, in all of its beauty, and all of its messy parts. And often, systems don't necessarily allow for diversity of thought. So this notion that we can activate an artistic space, and we think about activation, often in performance spaces, not necessarily in, you know, visual arts spaces or art museums, and I, you know, I could be wrong about that. But that's kind of the lens that I'm coming from. But thinking about activating a space, where you often just come in and take in the art, or take in these documents, and take in these words, but then to say, hey, we want you who are coming in and receiving this information, to now take these, you know, these these, you know, historic documents and this in this history, that we're all kind of a part of in this country. And now we want you to rewrite it or add your thoughts or think about it through your specific life lens. And to think about that, from an arts education standpoint, is really significant. And I think for me, it was one of my biggest takeaways and moments of impact within the conversation between Marissa and I.
Jeff M. Poulin 43:49
Yeah, you know, I think that's really interesting, especially because, and I have zero training and like the visual arts, but I find the curatorial bravery, of sort of what they've done right where they have in this one exhibit, we the people, they have these great historic documents. And what they've done is they've engaged them, I think, as she said, in conversation with other works by not old white men founders, right, you know, so you do have indigenous people, you have queer female, identifying artists, you have others that are creating works directly in response that are literally presented directly opposite. And I find that such a powerful thing to do, but also in the way that she described it, that the humanizing aspects of these inanimate objects are in conversation with each other. Right? It also speaks to the power of the interpretation and the power of the experience and the assumption that people are going to critically engage and, you know, it might be the influenza this other project I'm working on. But you know, we have to set high expectations for people to say like we are putting this week the museum are putting together these big ideas. And you are expected to grapple with it. Like that's part of the I don't know, your tax to society as just being a member of society, like you have to think about these things critically. And that is one of the things that is the power of the arts. And it does Harken me back. I think in the interview, you mentioned your other interview with Quentin Barrett, right, about the rewriting of the Declaration of Independence, if I have that correct. And, you know, those types of experiences, I don't even think are part of the, you know, arts community only, I think they're essential components of being a member of a community like we are obligated to do that.
Karla Estela Rivera 45:54
Absolutely. And, you know, I would say like, I've seen these actual historic documents in the National Archives Museum, and there is a certain gravitas to being face to face with them. But the way that these documents have been activated at Crystal Bridges, I have not been there, but but the way it's being talked about, and you've certainly seen it with your own eyes, you know, that is, to me, I think one of the best ways to probably digest it and make it your own, right. Because when you see it in the National Archives Museum, heavily guarded, you have very limited time to spend with it. And there's really nowhere to process it unless you're with people, and you're really kind of engaging in the conversation about what you saw, but it really is more about, wow, those are some really cool documents that were really cool to see. Not, you know, the meaning of it, and you know, how it serves us and how it doesn't, right.
Jeff M. Poulin 47:10
And to juxtapose those two positions, right, you have the National Archives, which is a very large marble building, with nothing else on the walls, very sterile, very clean. And you sort of file in a line to, you know, unidirectionally, take in this, this document, and then you file in a line up the other side, versus a space where you enter, you're surrounded by nature, you have lots of ideas being plugged into your head through the various other artworks that you take in on the way they're positioned and curated in conversation with each other to open your mind to new possibilities. I mean, just think about that. And that, I guess what that says to me, and the point that I'm trying to make is that quote, unquote, civic spaces, like city halls and government buildings are so boring, right? Like they're just so you uniform in a way that contextualizes us to just simply be followers of those in power, and versus museums, which to our civic spaces, as long as they claim that responsibility. And they're able to animate dialogues and cause questions and bring to life. The human elements of our historic documents, our untold histories are communal narratives that cause us to progress somewhere versus fall in line behind whoever's in power. And I just think that that's a beautiful thing. And that's one of my big takeaways is I don't know, necessarily that the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence or whatever should be forever protected with armed guards in Washington, DC, perhaps they too should go on the road. Perhaps they too should be questioned.
Karla Estela Rivera 49:21
Hmm, absolutely. And, you know, democracy, to me, is a lot like gardening. I mean, I mentioned my plants earlier, and, you know, we talk a lot about the nature surrounding this museum. And, you know, there's, there are those that would imagine, you know, here's the law. Here are the policies, here's the things that we've set forth, you can take them and digest them. Or hear, come and become a participant in this process. Get your hands in the dirt. What kind of seeds do you want to plant? What kind of, you know, process? Do you want to see? What kind of flowers do you want to look at? That's like a thing I do every year is how I want to, you know, I've been gardening now for about six years in Chicago. And every season I think about the lessons that I learned from the year before, and here's where we can put this in this particular light. So it gets the right exposure, so that I can bear so that, you know, these vegetables can bear fruit in the way that they need to. And that doesn't happen unless you're getting your hands dirty, unless you're really grappling with the land, and, and with the seeds and with, you know, the nature that is around you and the weather. And so I think that Crystal Bridges, you know, really situated in this place where you know, nature and certain things that you cannot control really exist. And then within the container of this building, through folks like Marisa and others, they're really facilitating a process, one through an exhibit, like me, the people, and also even the way that she talks about the naturalization ceremony that happened, there recently is saying, you know, this is a place where you can get your hands dirty, and really grapple with the complexities of this country, figure out what is your own? And let us have these conversations. And you can take away these thoughts, and hopefully, you know that those are seeds planted for, you know, future engagements outside of that building.
Jeff M. Poulin 51:54
Yeah, and that's something that I find really interesting, in another sort of dichotomy, right? That, as educators, both the education staff at the museum, but also arts educators, or other educators that might bring students there, but also as young creatives to think about how one gets their hands in the dirt. I also want to invoke along with the episode featuring Quinta Barrett, the episode that we did last season with Dr. Penny hay from the UK who talked about getting your hands in the roots with Rachel. And it was this idea that it's not just getting your hands in the dirt, but it's actually like investigating what's in the dirt. And it's the roots and the root causes of things. And I think that that's something that the arts do is they allow us to sort of peel back the layers of the onion, if you will, or get in the dirt, but to the root cause of a lot of different questions in society. And that is something that's tremendously powerful that is reinventing the way that learning is happening that is an asset of arts and cultural education. And that is something that pretty uniquely museum educators, arts educators, and others can do as sort of their role in society. And I think that's just really powerful to see. And I also wonder, too, you know, that it's not just Crystal Bridges in Northwest Arkansas, it's museums everywhere. And those museums could also be like community centers, little small displays in your small town, anywhere in the USA, right? Like the idea that any of these types of spaces can be those creative civic spaces, that is democratizing dialogue, and driving those big burning questions in the minds of young people, artists, communities, families, everyone. And I think that that's beautiful.
Karla Estela Rivera 53:56
Yeah, I love that. And, on that note, as we all know, there will be some links that will be attached to this podcast, to Crystal Bridges that we the people exhibit, and anything else that we have discussed today. Jeff, thank you for spending some time with me today and having this conversation. As always, it is always a pleasure to hang out with you. And I'm looking forward to the next episode.
Jeff M. Poulin 54:24
Absolutely. Thank you, Carla. And thanks to Marissa for the conversation. Yeah, see you later. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in today's episode are located in the show notes. Be sure to tune in next week to see what else is happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, be sure to write us at info at Creative dash generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn turnabout and why change matters to you our show is produced and edited by Daniel Stanley Our music is by distant cousins A special thanks to our contributors co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support